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Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewin

Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewing is hard for businesses and when they get it wrong everybody needs to be able to part ways. The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. That includes having to pay a state licensing group to say you are professionally certified in Java, risking losing your job if you fail to renew on time, having the state lock out anybody from the profession who does not meet these requirements, having unions require these certifications and pressure companies to only hire based on them. It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
> It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Perhaps some people want the worker protections other industrialized countries have? And if those people are the majority, they can get it. EDIT: > The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. Maybe this field needs some encumbrances and its time its no longer the wild wild west. Credentials aren't bad, peer-review isn't bad. Maybe I want my software built like my bridges? To standards and reliable.
- Karunamon 9y ago
  If it took as long to build a web app as it did to build a bridge, and as much bureaucracy to go through, tech would be dead. Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    > Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of. I agree. But more developers should know those standards. Don't call yourself an engineer if you're not willing to follow how legitimate engineers operate.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    No, but many which currently aren't absolutely should be. Imagine if Equifax needed to operate under those kinds of standards.
spamizbad 9y ago
> Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's not. Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts in nearly all instances. Source: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf But I'd go further and say what constitutes "high" is subjective. If you look at it in terms of median household/income distribution then yes, you could certainly make the case it's high. But, when you consider the amount of value a developer creates compared to their salary, their pay may seem quite low. Facebook, for example, returns $188,000 profit per employee (https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-profit-per-employee-comparison-chart https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-pro...).
- brightball 9y ago
  I'm not arguing that on-average union workers don't make more, only that we're in a high demand and fast-moving field with rampant innovation. How much innovation happens in unionized fields? How much work did Uber have to do to essentially go full on rogue to get around the system built up by taxi unions? How much union work ends up getting either automated or outsourced to countries without union workers? Do lost jobs count against that average pay stat? Look at the hoops that Tesla has had to jump through just to sell cars to you directly? Those local car dealers...that's a sales union. I mean, the National Labor Relations Board gets called in when Boeing wants to open a plant in the south east. We're not even talking off-shoring or cutting jobs. Unions, like anything, have cyclical benefits. There are times when they make sense. There are others when they don't.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

toomuchtodo 9y ago

> It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Perhaps some people want the worker protections other industrialized countries have? And if those people are the majority, they can get it. EDIT: > The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. Maybe this field needs some encumbrances and its time its no longer the wild wild west. Credentials aren't bad, peer-review isn't bad. Maybe I want my software built like my bridges? To standards and reliable.

Karunamon 9y ago
If it took as long to build a web app as it did to build a bridge, and as much bureaucracy to go through, tech would be dead. Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of. I agree. But more developers should know those standards. Don't call yourself an engineer if you're not willing to follow how legitimate engineers operate.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  No, but many which currently aren't absolutely should be. Imagine if Equifax needed to operate under those kinds of standards.

spamizbad 9y ago

> Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's not. Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts in nearly all instances. Source: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf But I'd go further and say what constitutes "high" is subjective. If you look at it in terms of median household/income distribution then yes, you could certainly make the case it's high. But, when you consider the amount of value a developer creates compared to their salary, their pay may seem quite low. Facebook, for example, returns $188,000 profit per employee (https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-profit-per-employee-comparison-chart https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-pro...).

brightball 9y ago
I'm not arguing that on-average union workers don't make more, only that we're in a high demand and fast-moving field with rampant innovation. How much innovation happens in unionized fields? How much work did Uber have to do to essentially go full on rogue to get around the system built up by taxi unions? How much union work ends up getting either automated or outsourced to countries without union workers? Do lost jobs count against that average pay stat? Look at the hoops that Tesla has had to jump through just to sell cars to you directly? Those local car dealers...that's a sales union. I mean, the National Labor Relations Board gets called in when Boeing wants to open a plant in the south east. We're not even talking off-shoring or cutting jobs. Unions, like anything, have cyclical benefits. There are times when they make sense. There are others when they don't.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]