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I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other pro

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support structures in place that engineers do.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
The downvotes speak volumes of the cognitive dissonance. Everone is fully in control of their destiny through their rugged individualism and bootstraps until they're laid off and packing up to head back home from SFBA because they have no worker protections. I suppose everyone has to learn the hard way (again) during the next downturn.
- psyc 9y ago
  The comment you're replying to conflated gatekeeping associations, which aim to keep people out of the field to bolster demand, with worker protections.
  - jejones3141 9y ago
    Ignoring the ethics of the matter, I suspect that those already in the field would consider that a form of protection and hence a union would take on gatekeeping functions.
- brightball 9y ago
  Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewing is hard for businesses and when they get it wrong everybody needs to be able to part ways. The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. That includes having to pay a state licensing group to say you are professionally certified in Java, risking losing your job if you fail to renew on time, having the state lock out anybody from the profession who does not meet these requirements, having unions require these certifications and pressure companies to only hire based on them. It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    > It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Perhaps some people want the worker protections other industrialized countries have? And if those people are the majority, they can get it. EDIT: > The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. Maybe this field needs some encumbrances and its time its no longer the wild wild west. Credentials aren't bad, peer-review isn't bad. Maybe I want my software built like my bridges? To standards and reliable.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      If it took as long to build a web app as it did to build a bridge, and as much bureaucracy to go through, tech would be dead. Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        > Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of. I agree. But more developers should know those standards. Don't call yourself an engineer if you're not willing to follow how legitimate engineers operate.
      - s73ver_ 9y ago
        No, but many which currently aren't absolutely should be. Imagine if Equifax needed to operate under those kinds of standards.
  - spamizbad 9y ago
    > Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's not. Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts in nearly all instances. Source: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf But I'd go further and say what constitutes "high" is subjective. If you look at it in terms of median household/income distribution then yes, you could certainly make the case it's high. But, when you consider the amount of value a developer creates compared to their salary, their pay may seem quite low. Facebook, for example, returns $188,000 profit per employee (https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-profit-per-employee-comparison-chart https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-pro...).
umanwizard 9y ago
What do you mean by "other" professional degrees? There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Comment you replied to isn't inferring a degree is required, they're inferring programmers should organize through collective actions (represented by a industry labor group) to have more leverage against corporations they work for.
- majewsky 9y ago
  I bet there was a time when doctors/engineers/lawyers/etc. said the same.
  - arjie 9y ago
    Yeah, and look at the nonsense they do: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor... The AMA tries to restrict the number of doctors in the US and creates crises instead of letting people study to become doctors. Because they're incompetent at the goal of keeping the public healthy, and exceptionally competent at keeping doctor salaries high, you get something indistinguishable from regulatory capture. No, thank you.
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  Really, what I meant was other "professional" or "white-collar" fields. I'm sorry if that was unclear, it was early.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  There's no "professional degree" to become an actor/actress or a director. Yet, they're still covered by a union.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

The downvotes speak volumes of the cognitive dissonance. Everone is fully in control of their destiny through their rugged individualism and bootstraps until they're laid off and packing up to head back home from SFBA because they have no worker protections. I suppose everyone has to learn the hard way (again) during the next downturn.

psyc 9y ago
The comment you're replying to conflated gatekeeping associations, which aim to keep people out of the field to bolster demand, with worker protections.
- jejones3141 9y ago
  Ignoring the ethics of the matter, I suspect that those already in the field would consider that a form of protection and hence a union would take on gatekeeping functions.
brightball 9y ago
Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewing is hard for businesses and when they get it wrong everybody needs to be able to part ways. The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. That includes having to pay a state licensing group to say you are professionally certified in Java, risking losing your job if you fail to renew on time, having the state lock out anybody from the profession who does not meet these requirements, having unions require these certifications and pressure companies to only hire based on them. It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Perhaps some people want the worker protections other industrialized countries have? And if those people are the majority, they can get it. EDIT: > The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. Maybe this field needs some encumbrances and its time its no longer the wild wild west. Credentials aren't bad, peer-review isn't bad. Maybe I want my software built like my bridges? To standards and reliable.
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    If it took as long to build a web app as it did to build a bridge, and as much bureaucracy to go through, tech would be dead. Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      > Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of. I agree. But more developers should know those standards. Don't call yourself an engineer if you're not willing to follow how legitimate engineers operate.
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      No, but many which currently aren't absolutely should be. Imagine if Equifax needed to operate under those kinds of standards.
- spamizbad 9y ago
  > Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's not. Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts in nearly all instances. Source: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf But I'd go further and say what constitutes "high" is subjective. If you look at it in terms of median household/income distribution then yes, you could certainly make the case it's high. But, when you consider the amount of value a developer creates compared to their salary, their pay may seem quite low. Facebook, for example, returns $188,000 profit per employee (https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-profit-per-employee-comparison-chart https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-pro...).

umanwizard 9y ago

What do you mean by "other" professional degrees? There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Comment you replied to isn't inferring a degree is required, they're inferring programmers should organize through collective actions (represented by a industry labor group) to have more leverage against corporations they work for.
majewsky 9y ago
I bet there was a time when doctors/engineers/lawyers/etc. said the same.
- arjie 9y ago
  Yeah, and look at the nonsense they do: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor-shortage_x.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-03-02-doctor... The AMA tries to restrict the number of doctors in the US and creates crises instead of letting people study to become doctors. Because they're incompetent at the goal of keeping the public healthy, and exceptionally competent at keeping doctor salaries high, you get something indistinguishable from regulatory capture. No, thank you.
SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
Really, what I meant was other "professional" or "white-collar" fields. I'm sorry if that was unclear, it was early.
s73ver_ 9y ago
There's no "professional degree" to become an actor/actress or a director. Yet, they're still covered by a union.