9 ms·

I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement. Not only is it insanely expensive, it's not even necessary. Android can be used without Google very easily

by franga2000 9y ago

I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement. Not only is it insanely expensive, it's not even necessary. Android can be used without Google very easily. You can even get one of the hundreds of chinese phones that don't have any Google software whatsoever. Try using an iPhone without an Apple account.

ekianjo 9y ago
> I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement. And you can't technically "switch" to iOS. You have to buy a new device for that, a new phone. On a PC, you can tell people to "switch to Linux" because it does not cost them anything, but phones being what they are now, there is close to no Freedom left to the user to install a different OS.
- throwawayaway12 9y ago
  While this is true, I think (but do not know the stats) that people buy/replace phones more often than they buy PCs.
blub 9y ago
It is an improvement, because Google is one of the greatest privacy offenders. Almost any company except Facebook and the other tracking-people-for-money would be better than them. Android is a hopeless cause. If the platform developer's goal is to get all information about you that it can, it's pointless to try software workarounds. And recommending software developed by Chinese companies for privacy purposes must be a joke.
- FussyZeus 9y ago
  This is what pushed me to iOS primarily. The simple fact is Google is incentivized directly to spy on you, and (increasingly) Apple is using the fact that they do not spy on you as a differentiator. They make their money on the hardware and via iTunes; they don't sell your data, and oftentimes don't even have access to your data by their own design. Apple doesn't have 100% of my trust but of the OEM phone makers out their right now, I think by a wide margin they're the most trustworthy.
  - tannhaeuser 9y ago
    True, but OTOH iOS's closedness puts you in a weak position where if Apple changes their mind you can't do anything about it. It's annoying, too, because you need the horrific iTunes software and its cert infrastructure as a gateway to your phone. It's really paradoxical that a closed source O/S is a pro-privacy option vs. Linux-based Android of all things.
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      Well they've made a first step to de-cluttering iTunes by moving iOS app management out of the thing, as well as a few other bits, so hopefully it will be less of a dumpster fire in the near future. As to the fact that you're at Apple's mercy, that's true, but I don't see how that's particularly different with Android and Google, the only difference being with Android you often don't get their latest software update. ;) And yes, definitely a paradox but I think the primary reason is that people tend to think of Android as being a Google product, when it isn't, Google just bought it. If you use pure Android on a rooted device you could probably secure it pretty effectively, except that software updates then become more complicated, plus the process of rooting a phone, while not as complex as jailbreaking an iOS device, is quite challenging and above what the vast, vast majority of users are willing to do.
- Pigo 9y ago
  >Android is a hopeless cause You've been living in some kind of echo chamber my brother, especially if you think Apple worries about encryption just because they want your privacy. It's only the ubiquitous mobile device OS on the planet. Do you ever want to do something fun with a raspberry pi?
- cannonedhamster 9y ago
  This was one of the reasons I was really sad to see Ubuntu discontinue their phone. It would be nice to have a phone option that could easily install multiple OSes. While Replicant exists it's nowhere near feature parity. I suppose one could use a custom ROM but there are very few phones that work flawlessly with them in my experience. What about options like the ONEPlus phones?
  - gras 9y ago
    PostMarketOS is working on this issue! It's an Alpine Linux distro for phones with Wayland and its own UI kit.
    - morganvachon 9y ago
      Vouched for your comment; even though PostMarketOS is nowhere near ready for primetime, it is philosophically at least a step in the right direction.
      - gras 9y ago
        Thanks, must be one of the "go away" bots I keep encountering since my home IP got shitlisted for unclear reasons. I don't think it's ready for prime time either, but I think it might get to Arch-level usability for a reasonably large set of phones soon. Very promising for middling tinkerers and up IMO.
        morganvachon 9y ago
        For a while I've thought about trolling eBay for a PostMarketOS compatible phone, just to keep up with development in a hands-on way. It's cheaper than investing in the Neo900 or the Pyra, though I'm passionate about both of those projects as well.
  - striking 9y ago
    I've experienced success installing Ubuntu Mobile and Sailfish OS using MultiROM on the OnePlus One. It was neat. YMMV.
nickrio 9y ago
Bad thing is those Chinese made phones come with their own alternative stuff that worse than Google's, like their own app market etc :( In China, some phones may annoying user with their own built-in apps or even integrated with AdWare or/and other stuff that will collect your "usage" info. We don't trust those devices in China. But maybe they're better outside? I don't know. If you want to use Chinese phones as alternative, be picky, use only large international brand, and good luck.
j_s 9y ago
What do you recommend instead?
- pasta 9y ago
  Sailfish OS
- nwah1 9y ago
  I was hopeful about lots of alternatives, but Firefox OS is dead for now and Sailfish is hard to come by without rooting. Rooting your phone isn't always possible. Microsoft controls both CyanogenMod, which is often the best opption, and of course Windows Mobile, but in many ways MS is actually more open source friendly than Google nowadays. (and both are obviously way more open than Apple) Honestly, I'm rooting for Microsoft in the mobile space right now simply because the more competition there is, the more need for cross-platform standards. But I'm also rooting for Sailfish and Firefox (assuming they try again when Servo is done). They all have interesting pros and cons.
  - snthd 9y ago
    Cyanogenmod is now just a defunct brand - the spirit of the thing lives on in the LineageOS fork (sans corporate backing).
- jhasse 9y ago
  LineageOS https://www.lineageos.org/ https://www.lineageos.org/ + F-Droid https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/
  - pyrophane 9y ago
    Does LineageOS integrate google apps/services by default?
    - snthd 9y ago
      No, adding "gapps" is an optional (unsupported) step after imaging the device.
Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
It's definitely a better strategy to run AOSP without Google apps.
pdimitar 9y ago
> Android can be used without Google very easily. I'll tell that to my mother. I am sure she will agree. Right after she finishes laughing. No, it's not "very easily". It's not even "easily".
- vetinari 9y ago
  Yes, easily: do not put your account credentials there. Sure, you will be not able to use Google apps, but that's the point, right?
  - pdimitar 9y ago
    IMO the point is using the ecosystem without sacrificing your privacy -- and you have to go through a lot of hoops on Android to achieve it. Hoops the normal non tech-savvy people won't go through.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Using Android without compromising your privacy and using Google services with the same are two radically different things. Especially because the Google services run on the Google servers and you have to contact them in order to use them. The same is not true for just using Android. However, the thing regarding Google services is true whether you use them on Android or any other system.
      - pdimitar 9y ago
        Google Play Services offers a lot of baked functionality many apps have come to rely on.
        vetinari 9y ago
        That's true. However, just like any other third party library, app may use, but they don't have to. It is up to the developer. It is perfectly fine to develop Android apps that do not use Google Play Services. In fact, if you want your app to run on Chinese devices or Amazon devices, for example, you have to account for missing Google Play Services.
kahnpro 9y ago
Also look at the future of their product line and where you'll eventually be upgrading, if you buy in to Apple... I switched back to Android over this.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
seasonalgrit 9y ago
As far as I know, there is no way to sync contacts/calendar over-the-wire (USB) using Android. That's a major ding if one is trying to avoid all things cloud. (edit: i should add i'm referring to macos)
- cvwright 9y ago
  If the goal is just to avoid using Google, you don't necessarily need to sync contacts and calendars over USB. You can use CalDav and CardDav with a non-Google online service like Fastmail.
oskarth 9y ago
The article is called How to Live Without Google. If that is your goal, does an iPhone help with that or not? That doesn't mean it is the only way. Of course you can go without a phone, use a dumbphone, or use Android without Google if you manage to get it to work. As to why one would want to live without Google, there are many reasons. For one thing you actually pay Apple with real money, not in eyeballs like you do with Google and Facebook as a consumer.
dannysu 9y ago
People don't have problem using an Apple account because they're not using that to track you everywhere and then use that against you in ads. It's the same thing between Chrome vs Firefox. People also don't have a problem with their Firefox account used for syncing. Why? The scope is limited. If you don't use Google Play as an app store, security quickly becomes an issue. And even if you are using Google Play, the inherent ability for apps to do whatever offers less privacy than the iOS equivalent. Apple was very much criticized in the earlier days when apps would leak personal data out. They've since focused on giving the users more control about what to share. Android on the other hand, not so much. I've used Android as my primary phone for a number of years. Privacy and security are some of the reasons that I will only buy Apple phones now. I wish that wasn't the case because I do want the variety of phone choices and the lower cost options. I also do like Android for its other aspect, but security and privacy ranks towards the very top of my criteria.
- fs111 9y ago
  > People don't have problem using an Apple account because they're not using that to track you everywhere I would not be so sure about that..
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Why? Mind citing some sources so we can make more informed choices? I've heard this accusation a few times, but there's not a lot of info contradicting Apple's word on how they are using the data they collect.
    - fghtr 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Secret_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Secret_tracking (it's from 2011-2015, but still...)
      - falcolas 9y ago
        Here's what I take from that (emphasis mine): > "Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a “backdoor” in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will." IMO Turning over data they have stored in response to government requests while working to reduce the data they have access to is rather different from using it to build profiles about their customers and sell their eyeballs to third parties.
Animats 9y ago
I have an Android phone without a Google account or Google services. It's a pain, and it became more of a pain when local voice dialing went away. But it does work. Mail via IMAP, web via Firefox, SMS via SMS, maps via ZaNavi.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Do you have to write your own apps on Android?
0x4a42 9y ago
>Android can be used without Google very easily. Android is a Google product. :/
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jieiieifnfj88 9y ago
A number of Chinese Android models have been found to contain back doors. And you CAN use an iPhone without Apple if you jailbreak. That said, Apple has taken a number of social policy positions and my 3 year old 6 Plus is getting the latest OS this fall, and for my load, the battery life is still well beyond a work days. It's expensive but I'd end up chucking half a dozen cheap Android phones by now. Ultimately spending the same amount I know all about walled gardens and don't care. I bought a device with long term intent. So far I've been "rewarded" for the decision Meanwhile, official Android gadgets are quickly deprecated, leaky dinghy security wise and AOSP is a time consuming PITA

ekianjo 9y ago

> I really don't see switching to iOS an improvement. And you can't technically "switch" to iOS. You have to buy a new device for that, a new phone. On a PC, you can tell people to "switch to Linux" because it does not cost them anything, but phones being what they are now, there is close to no Freedom left to the user to install a different OS.

throwawayaway12 9y ago
While this is true, I think (but do not know the stats) that people buy/replace phones more often than they buy PCs.

blub 9y ago

It is an improvement, because Google is one of the greatest privacy offenders. Almost any company except Facebook and the other tracking-people-for-money would be better than them. Android is a hopeless cause. If the platform developer's goal is to get all information about you that it can, it's pointless to try software workarounds. And recommending software developed by Chinese companies for privacy purposes must be a joke.

FussyZeus 9y ago
This is what pushed me to iOS primarily. The simple fact is Google is incentivized directly to spy on you, and (increasingly) Apple is using the fact that they do not spy on you as a differentiator. They make their money on the hardware and via iTunes; they don't sell your data, and oftentimes don't even have access to your data by their own design. Apple doesn't have 100% of my trust but of the OEM phone makers out their right now, I think by a wide margin they're the most trustworthy.
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  True, but OTOH iOS's closedness puts you in a weak position where if Apple changes their mind you can't do anything about it. It's annoying, too, because you need the horrific iTunes software and its cert infrastructure as a gateway to your phone. It's really paradoxical that a closed source O/S is a pro-privacy option vs. Linux-based Android of all things.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    Well they've made a first step to de-cluttering iTunes by moving iOS app management out of the thing, as well as a few other bits, so hopefully it will be less of a dumpster fire in the near future. As to the fact that you're at Apple's mercy, that's true, but I don't see how that's particularly different with Android and Google, the only difference being with Android you often don't get their latest software update. ;) And yes, definitely a paradox but I think the primary reason is that people tend to think of Android as being a Google product, when it isn't, Google just bought it. If you use pure Android on a rooted device you could probably secure it pretty effectively, except that software updates then become more complicated, plus the process of rooting a phone, while not as complex as jailbreaking an iOS device, is quite challenging and above what the vast, vast majority of users are willing to do.
Pigo 9y ago
>Android is a hopeless cause You've been living in some kind of echo chamber my brother, especially if you think Apple worries about encryption just because they want your privacy. It's only the ubiquitous mobile device OS on the planet. Do you ever want to do something fun with a raspberry pi?
cannonedhamster 9y ago
This was one of the reasons I was really sad to see Ubuntu discontinue their phone. It would be nice to have a phone option that could easily install multiple OSes. While Replicant exists it's nowhere near feature parity. I suppose one could use a custom ROM but there are very few phones that work flawlessly with them in my experience. What about options like the ONEPlus phones?
- gras 9y ago
  PostMarketOS is working on this issue! It's an Alpine Linux distro for phones with Wayland and its own UI kit.
  - morganvachon 9y ago
    Vouched for your comment; even though PostMarketOS is nowhere near ready for primetime, it is philosophically at least a step in the right direction.
    - gras 9y ago
      Thanks, must be one of the "go away" bots I keep encountering since my home IP got shitlisted for unclear reasons. I don't think it's ready for prime time either, but I think it might get to Arch-level usability for a reasonably large set of phones soon. Very promising for middling tinkerers and up IMO.
      - morganvachon 9y ago
        For a while I've thought about trolling eBay for a PostMarketOS compatible phone, just to keep up with development in a hands-on way. It's cheaper than investing in the Neo900 or the Pyra, though I'm passionate about both of those projects as well.
- striking 9y ago
  I've experienced success installing Ubuntu Mobile and Sailfish OS using MultiROM on the OnePlus One. It was neat. YMMV.

nickrio 9y ago

Bad thing is those Chinese made phones come with their own alternative stuff that worse than Google's, like their own app market etc :( In China, some phones may annoying user with their own built-in apps or even integrated with AdWare or/and other stuff that will collect your "usage" info. We don't trust those devices in China. But maybe they're better outside? I don't know. If you want to use Chinese phones as alternative, be picky, use only large international brand, and good luck.

j_s 9y ago

What do you recommend instead?

pasta 9y ago
Sailfish OS
nwah1 9y ago
I was hopeful about lots of alternatives, but Firefox OS is dead for now and Sailfish is hard to come by without rooting. Rooting your phone isn't always possible. Microsoft controls both CyanogenMod, which is often the best opption, and of course Windows Mobile, but in many ways MS is actually more open source friendly than Google nowadays. (and both are obviously way more open than Apple) Honestly, I'm rooting for Microsoft in the mobile space right now simply because the more competition there is, the more need for cross-platform standards. But I'm also rooting for Sailfish and Firefox (assuming they try again when Servo is done). They all have interesting pros and cons.
- snthd 9y ago
  Cyanogenmod is now just a defunct brand - the spirit of the thing lives on in the LineageOS fork (sans corporate backing).
jhasse 9y ago
LineageOS https://www.lineageos.org/ https://www.lineageos.org/ + F-Droid https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/
- pyrophane 9y ago
  Does LineageOS integrate google apps/services by default?
  - snthd 9y ago
    No, adding "gapps" is an optional (unsupported) step after imaging the device.

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago

It's definitely a better strategy to run AOSP without Google apps.

pdimitar 9y ago

> Android can be used without Google very easily. I'll tell that to my mother. I am sure she will agree. Right after she finishes laughing. No, it's not "very easily". It's not even "easily".

vetinari 9y ago
Yes, easily: do not put your account credentials there. Sure, you will be not able to use Google apps, but that's the point, right?
- pdimitar 9y ago
  IMO the point is using the ecosystem without sacrificing your privacy -- and you have to go through a lot of hoops on Android to achieve it. Hoops the normal non tech-savvy people won't go through.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Using Android without compromising your privacy and using Google services with the same are two radically different things. Especially because the Google services run on the Google servers and you have to contact them in order to use them. The same is not true for just using Android. However, the thing regarding Google services is true whether you use them on Android or any other system.
    - pdimitar 9y ago
      Google Play Services offers a lot of baked functionality many apps have come to rely on.
      - vetinari 9y ago
        That's true. However, just like any other third party library, app may use, but they don't have to. It is up to the developer. It is perfectly fine to develop Android apps that do not use Google Play Services. In fact, if you want your app to run on Chinese devices or Amazon devices, for example, you have to account for missing Google Play Services.

kahnpro 9y ago

Also look at the future of their product line and where you'll eventually be upgrading, if you buy in to Apple... I switched back to Android over this.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

seasonalgrit 9y ago

As far as I know, there is no way to sync contacts/calendar over-the-wire (USB) using Android. That's a major ding if one is trying to avoid all things cloud. (edit: i should add i'm referring to macos)

cvwright 9y ago
If the goal is just to avoid using Google, you don't necessarily need to sync contacts and calendars over USB. You can use CalDav and CardDav with a non-Google online service like Fastmail.

oskarth 9y ago

The article is called How to Live Without Google. If that is your goal, does an iPhone help with that or not? That doesn't mean it is the only way. Of course you can go without a phone, use a dumbphone, or use Android without Google if you manage to get it to work. As to why one would want to live without Google, there are many reasons. For one thing you actually pay Apple with real money, not in eyeballs like you do with Google and Facebook as a consumer.

dannysu 9y ago

People don't have problem using an Apple account because they're not using that to track you everywhere and then use that against you in ads. It's the same thing between Chrome vs Firefox. People also don't have a problem with their Firefox account used for syncing. Why? The scope is limited. If you don't use Google Play as an app store, security quickly becomes an issue. And even if you are using Google Play, the inherent ability for apps to do whatever offers less privacy than the iOS equivalent. Apple was very much criticized in the earlier days when apps would leak personal data out. They've since focused on giving the users more control about what to share. Android on the other hand, not so much. I've used Android as my primary phone for a number of years. Privacy and security are some of the reasons that I will only buy Apple phones now. I wish that wasn't the case because I do want the variety of phone choices and the lower cost options. I also do like Android for its other aspect, but security and privacy ranks towards the very top of my criteria.

fs111 9y ago
> People don't have problem using an Apple account because they're not using that to track you everywhere I would not be so sure about that..
- falcolas 9y ago
  Why? Mind citing some sources so we can make more informed choices? I've heard this accusation a few times, but there's not a lot of info contradicting Apple's word on how they are using the data they collect.
  - fghtr 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Secret_tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone#Secret_tracking (it's from 2011-2015, but still...)
    - falcolas 9y ago
      Here's what I take from that (emphasis mine): > "Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a “backdoor” in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed any government access to our servers. And we never will." IMO Turning over data they have stored in response to government requests while working to reduce the data they have access to is rather different from using it to build profiles about their customers and sell their eyeballs to third parties.

Animats 9y ago

I have an Android phone without a Google account or Google services. It's a pain, and it became more of a pain when local voice dialing went away. But it does work. Mail via IMAP, web via Firefox, SMS via SMS, maps via ZaNavi.

stevenwoo 9y ago
Do you have to write your own apps on Android?

0x4a42 9y ago

>Android can be used without Google very easily. Android is a Google product. :/

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jieiieifnfj88 9y ago

A number of Chinese Android models have been found to contain back doors. And you CAN use an iPhone without Apple if you jailbreak. That said, Apple has taken a number of social policy positions and my 3 year old 6 Plus is getting the latest OS this fall, and for my load, the battery life is still well beyond a work days. It's expensive but I'd end up chucking half a dozen cheap Android phones by now. Ultimately spending the same amount I know all about walled gardens and don't care. I bought a device with long term intent. So far I've been "rewarded" for the decision Meanwhile, official Android gadgets are quickly deprecated, leaky dinghy security wise and AOSP is a time consuming PITA