5 ms·

There is no single good phone option for privacy minded people in the U.S. at the moment, but Apple has definitely shown themselves to be the lesser of two priv

There is no single good phone option for privacy minded people in the U.S. at the moment, but Apple has definitely shown themselves to be the lesser of two privacy evils. At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor.

ekianjo 9y ago
> but Apple has definitely shown themselves to be the lesser of two privacy evils. Only for data physically stored on your phone, but you don't know what they do with your data stored/hosted on their cloud services.
- marian0_ 9y ago
  If you care about your privacy you won't upload your stuff to iCloud.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    i hope you are aware of this kind of problems: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7455294?start=0&tstart=0 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7455294?start=0&tstart=...
    - fortythirteen 9y ago
      I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance. There's really no argument here. Google is the world's #1 internet activity-tracking organization. Apple is a hardware company that has data retention policies roughly somewhere around what one would expect for the pervasiveness of it's technology. I don't have to like either, but I'd be a fool to think that we're talking about equal amounts of intrusion. Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
      - ekianjo 9y ago
        > I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance. Is it a bug though, or a feature? On Windows 10 regular updates do the exact same thing and revert your privacy settings back to default, as far as I know. > Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option. You can use Android outside of the Google ecosystem. I have Firefox as my main browser on Android, and I dont use Google Play stores, while iOS gives you no option to use alternatives.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        In Windows 10, it is also a potential bug, rather than evidence of malfeasance. As someone who works with Windows a lot, proving malicious intent on their part requires solid evidence: We already have tons of solid evidence of incompetence and poorly tested software. ;)
        ekianjo 9y ago
        Is it that hard to keep existing settings, or is it just that there is an obvious incentive for them to revert said settings to spy on you as you use Windows? If they had nothing to gain, you could claim it's a misunderstanding or a bug, but when there are obvious benefits into letting such things happen, I'd say you should be suspicious as to why it's even occurring.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        This is true, but I think we also see a lot of Windows issues that have no obvious gain for Microsoft, to the extent that it definitely seems like incompetence is a common source for issues over malfeasance. It is possible Microsoft is vastly smarter than I give them credit and has carefully buried their malfeasance in their incompetence, but I don't think we have any evidence of nearly that much cleverness on Microsoft's part any time recently. ;)
        9y ago
  - camillomiller 9y ago
    Well, you shouldn't upload it to any cloud system in general
    - lou1306 9y ago
      I guess he was talking about actual data leaks, iCloud has a pretty bad track record on that front...
  - turk184 9y ago
    No, no you wouldn't because there's a legal precedent saying that any data stored outside your home is fair game. It's ridiculous the dystopia we are building, quite frankly. It's a technological tyranny.
lrvick 9y ago
Copperhead sells devices that ship open source builds of Android focused on security and privacy without any google server dependencies. For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options. We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils. We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing.
- pdimitar 9y ago
  > Copperhead sells devices that ship open source builds of Android focused on security and privacy without any google server dependencies. You mean Nexus 6P, the device that many coudln't could trust to not drop their Bluetooth connection to their car's audio system? Or the device that suffers random display and sound issues on a hardware level? > For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options. "willing to install their own OS" saved you from trolling here. Need I remind you however how miniscule that audience is? Shouldn't we strive to make privacy available for all mothers and grandmothers out there as well? > We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils. Your life might allow you to go live in a cave without technology, mine doesn't. Good to know your idealism is serviceable in your life but you should realize this isn't the case for most of us. > We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing. Yeah. Right after I finish my work day and when I only need rest and relaxation. Oh wait.
  - milcron 9y ago
    Copperhead supports Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P, Pixel, and Pixel XL.
r3bl 9y ago
> At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor. They also gave the FBI the last iCloud backup of the phone (a month before the attack happened), so it's not like they haven't cooperated with the FBI at all in that case. It's just that it wasn't enough to the FBI, and that's where Apple drew the line.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  If a company doing business in the US receives a legal warrant from a judge requiring them to turn over information they have access to, pretty much any company has to comply. So this isn't surprising, or even that worrisome that they turned that over. Everyone would. The trick, of course, to preventing government surveillance is for companies to just not have the data in the first place.
  - turk184 9y ago
    Yes it is worrisome because of how the cloud operates.
- ctdonath 9y ago
  If they have the data, and can supply the data in readable form, they may be legally obligated to provide it. Not much else you can do at that moment, if you're Tim Cook trying to stay out of prison. Apple is clearly working toward securing that data so they can't supply it in readable form. Hard to reconcile that with excellent usability & UX, but they're solidly heading that way. Encrypting that iCloud backup such that it [mathematically] cannot be used without the Secure Enclave is surely coming. To wit: "here's all the data we have, only the defendant can unlock it, and no we're not building backdoors in."
  - turk184 9y ago
    We need fully encrypted telephony at all times, too. We need to be secure in our [digital] papers and effects and have the same legal protections as though it were a physical item residing in a safe, preferably better than that.
Xoros 9y ago
Bah, it's not like if Apple is storing on US soil your fingerprints or your face for ID. Oh, wait...
- hellofunk 9y ago
  What makes you think Apple stores that information? It probably never leaves your phone.
  - Xoros 9y ago
    Yes, I know they stated that when it cames on the iPhone 5 [0]. So they probably not. But they were (and perhaps still are ?) also part of PRISM. So why not be a little paranoid But I admit my conspiracy theory assumption was written as a statement, sorry about that ! [0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPhone-5s-The-Most-Forward-Thinking-Smartphone-in-the-World/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPh...
- renaudg 9y ago
  It doesn't leave your phone. Google "secure enclave"...I mean, search for "secure enclave" :)
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    Instead, a customised anonymised Google unique ID does.

ekianjo 9y ago

> but Apple has definitely shown themselves to be the lesser of two privacy evils. Only for data physically stored on your phone, but you don't know what they do with your data stored/hosted on their cloud services.

marian0_ 9y ago
If you care about your privacy you won't upload your stuff to iCloud.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  i hope you are aware of this kind of problems: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7455294?start=0&tstart=0 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7455294?start=0&tstart=...
  - fortythirteen 9y ago
    I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance. There's really no argument here. Google is the world's #1 internet activity-tracking organization. Apple is a hardware company that has data retention policies roughly somewhere around what one would expect for the pervasiveness of it's technology. I don't have to like either, but I'd be a fool to think that we're talking about equal amounts of intrusion. Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option.
    - ekianjo 9y ago
      > I hope you're not using a potential bug as evidence of malfeasance. Is it a bug though, or a feature? On Windows 10 regular updates do the exact same thing and revert your privacy settings back to default, as far as I know. > Just what Google could do with the same amount of phone tracking, tied to all the other information it gathers from the multitude of other gathering apparatuses it operates makes an Andriod the less privacy minded option. You can use Android outside of the Google ecosystem. I have Firefox as my main browser on Android, and I dont use Google Play stores, while iOS gives you no option to use alternatives.
      - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        In Windows 10, it is also a potential bug, rather than evidence of malfeasance. As someone who works with Windows a lot, proving malicious intent on their part requires solid evidence: We already have tons of solid evidence of incompetence and poorly tested software. ;)
        ekianjo 9y ago
        Is it that hard to keep existing settings, or is it just that there is an obvious incentive for them to revert said settings to spy on you as you use Windows? If they had nothing to gain, you could claim it's a misunderstanding or a bug, but when there are obvious benefits into letting such things happen, I'd say you should be suspicious as to why it's even occurring.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        This is true, but I think we also see a lot of Windows issues that have no obvious gain for Microsoft, to the extent that it definitely seems like incompetence is a common source for issues over malfeasance. It is possible Microsoft is vastly smarter than I give them credit and has carefully buried their malfeasance in their incompetence, but I don't think we have any evidence of nearly that much cleverness on Microsoft's part any time recently. ;)
      - 9y ago
- camillomiller 9y ago
  Well, you shouldn't upload it to any cloud system in general
  - lou1306 9y ago
    I guess he was talking about actual data leaks, iCloud has a pretty bad track record on that front...
- turk184 9y ago
  No, no you wouldn't because there's a legal precedent saying that any data stored outside your home is fair game. It's ridiculous the dystopia we are building, quite frankly. It's a technological tyranny.

lrvick 9y ago

Copperhead sells devices that ship open source builds of Android focused on security and privacy without any google server dependencies. For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options. We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils. We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing.

pdimitar 9y ago
> Copperhead sells devices that ship open source builds of Android focused on security and privacy without any google server dependencies. You mean Nexus 6P, the device that many coudln't could trust to not drop their Bluetooth connection to their car's audio system? Or the device that suffers random display and sound issues on a hardware level? > For people willing to install their own operating systems, LineageOS and AOKP also are solid options. "willing to install their own OS" saved you from trolling here. Need I remind you however how miniscule that audience is? Shouldn't we strive to make privacy available for all mothers and grandmothers out there as well? > We don't have to choose the lesser of two evils. Your life might allow you to go live in a cave without technology, mine doesn't. Good to know your idealism is serviceable in your life but you should realize this isn't the case for most of us. > We just have to be willing to research options that don't have millions to spend on marketing. Yeah. Right after I finish my work day and when I only need rest and relaxation. Oh wait.
- milcron 9y ago
  Copperhead supports Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P, Pixel, and Pixel XL.

r3bl 9y ago

> At least Apple stood up to the FBI when they wanted an encryption backdoor. They also gave the FBI the last iCloud backup of the phone (a month before the attack happened), so it's not like they haven't cooperated with the FBI at all in that case. It's just that it wasn't enough to the FBI, and that's where Apple drew the line.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
If a company doing business in the US receives a legal warrant from a judge requiring them to turn over information they have access to, pretty much any company has to comply. So this isn't surprising, or even that worrisome that they turned that over. Everyone would. The trick, of course, to preventing government surveillance is for companies to just not have the data in the first place.
- turk184 9y ago
  Yes it is worrisome because of how the cloud operates.
ctdonath 9y ago
If they have the data, and can supply the data in readable form, they may be legally obligated to provide it. Not much else you can do at that moment, if you're Tim Cook trying to stay out of prison. Apple is clearly working toward securing that data so they can't supply it in readable form. Hard to reconcile that with excellent usability & UX, but they're solidly heading that way. Encrypting that iCloud backup such that it [mathematically] cannot be used without the Secure Enclave is surely coming. To wit: "here's all the data we have, only the defendant can unlock it, and no we're not building backdoors in."
- turk184 9y ago
  We need fully encrypted telephony at all times, too. We need to be secure in our [digital] papers and effects and have the same legal protections as though it were a physical item residing in a safe, preferably better than that.

Xoros 9y ago

Bah, it's not like if Apple is storing on US soil your fingerprints or your face for ID. Oh, wait...

hellofunk 9y ago
What makes you think Apple stores that information? It probably never leaves your phone.
- Xoros 9y ago
  Yes, I know they stated that when it cames on the iPhone 5 [0]. So they probably not. But they were (and perhaps still are ?) also part of PRISM. So why not be a little paranoid But I admit my conspiracy theory assumption was written as a statement, sorry about that ! [0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPhone-5s-The-Most-Forward-Thinking-Smartphone-in-the-World/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPh...
renaudg 9y ago
It doesn't leave your phone. Google "secure enclave"...I mean, search for "secure enclave" :)
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  Instead, a customised anonymised Google unique ID does.