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I've been a Microsoft developer for a long time, but in recent years it's become increasingly hard to justify and the Linux subsystem hasn't helped. Not because

I've been a Microsoft developer for a long time, but in recent years it's become increasingly hard to justify and the Linux subsystem hasn't helped. Not because it's not an interesting feature, but because my desktop has become even more useless as anything but development than it already was with Visual Studio infecting everything. I'm sure it's a step in the right direction for a lot of people, but I bought an old 2015 MacBook and it's been a so much better experience than windows that I'm actually considering getting a ubuntu machine to see if it can work as my main machine. If this sounds odd to you, you haven't programmed on a MacBook with a Danish keyboard. Honestly Microsoft does a lot of things right these days, but it all comes with terrible user experiences. .Net core is great, but the devops required to run it in production, frankly has us considering java spring. Sorry about the rant, but the fact that you even needed to write this blog is a good illustration of what's wrong with Microsoft. Tech is supposed to run out of the box, with minimal effort required.

jkulubya 9y ago
To take the conversation sideways a bit, what about running .net core in production has given you trouble? We've had success with a bunch of services and my view is that most of the trouble is found pretty early on in the dev experience.
sirmike_ 9y ago
You know, I kindly disagree. Tech is suppose to run flawlessly/with minimal effort required out of the box for the average consumer. Power users, Devs, IT Pros and SysAdmins follow a much different path. Each one of these groups taylor's their systems to match their professional work flows. I do not know about you but I am constantly messing with things to get them just right. It doesn't take all that long but I love that I could come home to Windows and be greeted with add ons and programs which make my digital daily grind enjoyable. Case in point WinXCorners ( http://apps.codigobit.info/2015/10/winxcorners-hot-corners-for-windows-10.html http://apps.codigobit.info/2015/10/winxcorners-hot-corners-f... ) -- think Hot Corners. Love it. Throughout the years this and the Desktop spaces are Ah-Mah-Zing. They make a huge difference to me. From the Start Menu to forced Cortana-Bing-Edge is a mess. Yuck. But there are ways around it. But that's for me. That's my personal take. However looked at from my 8 year old's perspective -- those things do not matter. When he uses it -- it works for him. He was born into the iPad touch is first world. He had zero issues adapting to Windows touch/kb/mouse paradigm. It just works for him. The parental controls through MSFT accounts are outstanding, simple and get the job done. MacOS and Linux have yet to really nail multi-user accounts in the Desktop GUI realm mind you this is well outside of terminal land where multi-user accounts are never an issue. Granted MacOS has a leg up on Linux Desktop distros for multi-users. However this defect is compounded and made worse by the continuous client model. Iphones, Ipads, Apple Watches and Macs of all stripe were meant to be single user only. Sharing need not apply. Use cases matter a great deal. I am just happy I have a PAID alternative in Windows 10. Two years and they have gotten to the point where the growing pains are gone from Windows 10. WSL has matured quite a bit. WSL SSH (the lowest hanging fruit if there ever was) works orders of magnitude better than any wonky Powershell/CmdPrompt/Putty/Cygwin ever did. VI/VIM the same applies. Granted my perspective is from the SysAdmin/ITPro space. There are tradeoffs to everything. There are good tools and bad tools. Use the right tool for the right job. I personally have zero tolerance for non-cross platform Apps. I put the ability to be able to use the tool or service I pay for across different platforms first. I am not a fan of lock in. I should be able to spin up a new system and get it running to working status in 15 minutes or less. I do not get too attached to one OS or another. I prize flexibility over flashy niche and sometimes uber-sexy lock in. This model forces me to constantly stay sharp and educating myself.
monkmartinez 9y ago
So what macOS stuff do you run in "production" to users? Apple gets a free pass when it comes to the hard stuff and I am tired of it. At least Windows is can be run in "production"...
staticelf 9y ago
Funny because I used to be a "Linux developer", if there is such a thing, for a long time. But nowadays I consider myself a developer who has invested my time and energy into the Microsoft ecosystem. Why? Because never before have I felt so productive on Windows and together with my dissatisfaction with desktop linux it was an easy choice. With .NET Core, the console actually gets usable and today Powershell is simply a fantastic tool. Stuff that used to be a pain to setup is already there when you install Visual Studio. Things like git used to be hard to have to handle (I prefer the console) but now it is no longer true. I don't even run git bash. If you want to run stuff that usually is hard/annoying to run on Windows, for example Ruby or PHP it is today a breeze with the linux subsystem. I use .NET nowadays and together with Azure it's just unbeatable IMO. I get start a new project and have it deployed withing minutes complete with a database. It's super easy to setup git push deploy and you can deploy from the IDE as well. Node is setup with a click, it feels like it's almost better implemented on Windows than on linux. With both VS Code and the normal VS, setting up stuff like task runners or to compile typescript is now simpler than ever. I don't really know what devops you're talking about because I think .NET Core is much easier to run in production and you can still run it on the .NET Framework if you want that.
- eksemplar 9y ago
  Try pushing your .net core project to your iis and see what happens. I mean, it's not like it's impossible to get a .core project to run behind your iis, it's just not easy. Then try doing something like the EU standards for SAML authentication which is the easiest thing in the world in a lot of other environments yet is really terrible in .net. If Azure was my production environment I probably wouldn't be unhappy either.
braveo 9y ago
could you go into more detail on why the .net core devops is problematic?

jkulubya 9y ago

To take the conversation sideways a bit, what about running .net core in production has given you trouble? We've had success with a bunch of services and my view is that most of the trouble is found pretty early on in the dev experience.

sirmike_ 9y ago

You know, I kindly disagree. Tech is suppose to run flawlessly/with minimal effort required out of the box for the average consumer. Power users, Devs, IT Pros and SysAdmins follow a much different path. Each one of these groups taylor's their systems to match their professional work flows. I do not know about you but I am constantly messing with things to get them just right. It doesn't take all that long but I love that I could come home to Windows and be greeted with add ons and programs which make my digital daily grind enjoyable. Case in point WinXCorners ( http://apps.codigobit.info/2015/10/winxcorners-hot-corners-for-windows-10.html http://apps.codigobit.info/2015/10/winxcorners-hot-corners-f... ) -- think Hot Corners. Love it. Throughout the years this and the Desktop spaces are Ah-Mah-Zing. They make a huge difference to me. From the Start Menu to forced Cortana-Bing-Edge is a mess. Yuck. But there are ways around it. But that's for me. That's my personal take. However looked at from my 8 year old's perspective -- those things do not matter. When he uses it -- it works for him. He was born into the iPad touch is first world. He had zero issues adapting to Windows touch/kb/mouse paradigm. It just works for him. The parental controls through MSFT accounts are outstanding, simple and get the job done. MacOS and Linux have yet to really nail multi-user accounts in the Desktop GUI realm mind you this is well outside of terminal land where multi-user accounts are never an issue. Granted MacOS has a leg up on Linux Desktop distros for multi-users. However this defect is compounded and made worse by the continuous client model. Iphones, Ipads, Apple Watches and Macs of all stripe were meant to be single user only. Sharing need not apply. Use cases matter a great deal. I am just happy I have a PAID alternative in Windows 10. Two years and they have gotten to the point where the growing pains are gone from Windows 10. WSL has matured quite a bit. WSL SSH (the lowest hanging fruit if there ever was) works orders of magnitude better than any wonky Powershell/CmdPrompt/Putty/Cygwin ever did. VI/VIM the same applies. Granted my perspective is from the SysAdmin/ITPro space. There are tradeoffs to everything. There are good tools and bad tools. Use the right tool for the right job. I personally have zero tolerance for non-cross platform Apps. I put the ability to be able to use the tool or service I pay for across different platforms first. I am not a fan of lock in. I should be able to spin up a new system and get it running to working status in 15 minutes or less. I do not get too attached to one OS or another. I prize flexibility over flashy niche and sometimes uber-sexy lock in. This model forces me to constantly stay sharp and educating myself.

monkmartinez 9y ago

So what macOS stuff do you run in "production" to users? Apple gets a free pass when it comes to the hard stuff and I am tired of it. At least Windows is can be run in "production"...

staticelf 9y ago

Funny because I used to be a "Linux developer", if there is such a thing, for a long time. But nowadays I consider myself a developer who has invested my time and energy into the Microsoft ecosystem. Why? Because never before have I felt so productive on Windows and together with my dissatisfaction with desktop linux it was an easy choice. With .NET Core, the console actually gets usable and today Powershell is simply a fantastic tool. Stuff that used to be a pain to setup is already there when you install Visual Studio. Things like git used to be hard to have to handle (I prefer the console) but now it is no longer true. I don't even run git bash. If you want to run stuff that usually is hard/annoying to run on Windows, for example Ruby or PHP it is today a breeze with the linux subsystem. I use .NET nowadays and together with Azure it's just unbeatable IMO. I get start a new project and have it deployed withing minutes complete with a database. It's super easy to setup git push deploy and you can deploy from the IDE as well. Node is setup with a click, it feels like it's almost better implemented on Windows than on linux. With both VS Code and the normal VS, setting up stuff like task runners or to compile typescript is now simpler than ever. I don't really know what devops you're talking about because I think .NET Core is much easier to run in production and you can still run it on the .NET Framework if you want that.

eksemplar 9y ago
Try pushing your .net core project to your iis and see what happens. I mean, it's not like it's impossible to get a .core project to run behind your iis, it's just not easy. Then try doing something like the EU standards for SAML authentication which is the easiest thing in the world in a lot of other environments yet is really terrible in .net. If Azure was my production environment I probably wouldn't be unhappy either.

braveo 9y ago

could you go into more detail on why the .net core devops is problematic?