25 ms·

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone

by ironix 9y ago

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less concerned. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will NOT. The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention, and I know at the end of it, I can reach out to the EFF to seek representation in a larger action. Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? I realize trying to subvert any Canadian border search is not a good idea, but it's a good middle-grounds vs. "don't go to Canada" or "give them all your private data", I think. On the other hand, I am willing to be more stringent with the US border because (A) I am a citizen, I cannot be refused entry, and (B) this is a cause I would like to participate in, so invite any negative outcome caused by my refusal to unlock the device or share any logins.

tryingagainbro 9y ago
>> The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention Thanks for willing to take one for the team but be prepared to be put on a "troublemaker" list and be harassed, time and time again at border crossings.
- ironix 9y ago
  I am curious, is it possible that countries / regions share such lists? i.e. would refusing to comply with a digital search at the US border possibly affect me in EU?
  - nrb 9y ago
    Given the intelligence alliances that we know exist and the likely many that we aren't aware of, it's not only possible but probable.
iamatworknow 9y ago
>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) and then back again through Canada (Canadian customs again) driving home to the US (US customs again) with no problems. It's closer than the nearest commercial airport to me in the US and even with the customs delay, much more convenient. I also just go over to have fun in Ottawa and Montreal regularly. My vehicle has been searched 3 times in probably 6 years. My phone has always stayed with me, in my pocket, un-searched. I have only ever personally heard of one case of someone having their electronics searched, and the extent of the search was Canadian customs using the Windows search to look for files with "boy" or "girl" in the filename -- presumably looking for child porn. To be clear, I'm not saying this doesn't ever happen, or that it will 100% never happen to you, but the chances are very, very slim that they'll even ask you more than a few questions, let alone do any sort of search. Your mileage may vary, of course.
- 5ilv3r 9y ago
  Looking at the list of people represented, I'm lead to believe there is a large chance of racial profiling being involved.
  - iamatworknow 9y ago
    Absolutely a possibility.
  - CWuestefeld 9y ago
    I'm lead to believe there is a large chance of racial profiling being involved. On whose part? The border patrol, so that the pool of potential plaintiffs is large? Or by the EFF and ACLU, choosing a diversity of plaintiffs to represent?
- iamatworknow 9y ago
  To perhaps back my point up even further, look at the link that the EFF posted showing CBP's data: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-releases-statistics-electronic-device-searches-0 https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-rele... 189,594,422 people processed at the US border between October 2016 and March 2017 with 14,993 electronics searches. 0.008% of people processed had electronics searched.
mindslight 9y ago
> I realize trying to subvert any Canadian border search is not a good idea Erm, I don't see how you'd be "subverting" the search. The purpose of a border search is to examine what you're bringing into the country. If you smoke marijuana at home but (prudently) don't try to bring some into Canada, that isn't subverting their search. The latest time I returned to into the USSA (a while ago), I had an old laptop that I zeroed out the hard drive and physically moved it out of the computer. I figured this would leave the thugs with less justification to steal my things. However, I lucked out and was not actually subjected to an invasive inspection. Also, I don't know what you've previously used this burner phone for, but any flash filesystem won't actually erase things when you delete them.
curiousgal 9y ago
$100 says nothing is going to happen. This is selection bias at its best, as you only hear about the people getting their devices searched not the ones crossing easily. The chances of this happening to you are slim to none. I am not saying no one should be worried, I am just saying OP should not.
Iv 9y ago
My solution has been to not go to the US, but that is not always doable. An interesting solution is to give something else to the border to worry about. Something perfectly legal but that would focus their attention. Like a perfectly registered and legally transported gun. Or some flour in plastic bags. Or a bottle of whiskey.
- nucleardog 9y ago
  As a guy that's had my phone searched by customs a dozen times now, been put in windowless rooms while my car was tossed, held for four hours in the same room as my car while they pulled panels off, etc... I had a lot fewer issues crossing the border once I stopped being so organized. When I checked in for my flight I didn't have my passport itself on me, just the number. The airline I was using asked for an expiration date. I remembered the month and year but not the day... So I just picked a day. When I cleared customs, the guy was so busy correcting the expiration date on the computer that he wasn't even listening to my answer to his questions. On the way back, I was switching airlines, and the originating airline was unable to print me a boarding pass for the flight they'd put me on. When I got to customs and they asked for paperwork, they also asked for my boarding pass for my final flight. When I didn't have one, they sent me to get one from the airline and then literally waved me through when I came back. Once I noticed this, I started to think back... The least hassle I've had clearing security was when I did dumb things like leave a lighter in my pocket when I went to the airport. As soon as they found the lighter, they just took it away and admonished me and sent me on my way. For the most part, if you haven't given them a reason to be suspicious, once they find something it seems they stop looking.
3pt14159 9y ago
Just apply for Nexus. You're harmless. They'll do supreme vetting once and you'll avoid any stupid power tripping boarder guards after that. Since I got that I've spent under 5 mins at the boarder each time.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
If you feel strongly about the cause, maybe you can just donate to the EFF and ACLU rather than possibly causing yourself a bad day.

by ironix 9y ago

tryingagainbro 9y ago

>> The maximum threat to me is semi-indefinite detention Thanks for willing to take one for the team but be prepared to be put on a "troublemaker" list and be harassed, time and time again at border crossings.

ironix 9y ago
I am curious, is it possible that countries / regions share such lists? i.e. would refusing to comply with a digital search at the US border possibly affect me in EU?
- nrb 9y ago
  Given the intelligence alliances that we know exist and the likely many that we aren't aware of, it's not only possible but probable.

iamatworknow 9y ago

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) and then back again through Canada (Canadian customs again) driving home to the US (US customs again) with no problems. It's closer than the nearest commercial airport to me in the US and even with the customs delay, much more convenient. I also just go over to have fun in Ottawa and Montreal regularly. My vehicle has been searched 3 times in probably 6 years. My phone has always stayed with me, in my pocket, un-searched. I have only ever personally heard of one case of someone having their electronics searched, and the extent of the search was Canadian customs using the Windows search to look for files with "boy" or "girl" in the filename -- presumably looking for child porn. To be clear, I'm not saying this doesn't ever happen, or that it will 100% never happen to you, but the chances are very, very slim that they'll even ask you more than a few questions, let alone do any sort of search. Your mileage may vary, of course.

5ilv3r 9y ago
Looking at the list of people represented, I'm lead to believe there is a large chance of racial profiling being involved.
- iamatworknow 9y ago
  Absolutely a possibility.
- CWuestefeld 9y ago
  I'm lead to believe there is a large chance of racial profiling being involved. On whose part? The border patrol, so that the pool of potential plaintiffs is large? Or by the EFF and ACLU, choosing a diversity of plaintiffs to represent?
iamatworknow 9y ago
To perhaps back my point up even further, look at the link that the EFF posted showing CBP's data: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-releases-statistics-electronic-device-searches-0 https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/cbp-rele... 189,594,422 people processed at the US border between October 2016 and March 2017 with 14,993 electronics searches. 0.008% of people processed had electronics searched.

mindslight 9y ago

> I realize trying to subvert any Canadian border search is not a good idea Erm, I don't see how you'd be "subverting" the search. The purpose of a border search is to examine what you're bringing into the country. If you smoke marijuana at home but (prudently) don't try to bring some into Canada, that isn't subverting their search. The latest time I returned to into the USSA (a while ago), I had an old laptop that I zeroed out the hard drive and physically moved it out of the computer. I figured this would leave the thugs with less justification to steal my things. However, I lucked out and was not actually subjected to an invasive inspection. Also, I don't know what you've previously used this burner phone for, but any flash filesystem won't actually erase things when you delete them.

curiousgal 9y ago

$100 says nothing is going to happen. This is selection bias at its best, as you only hear about the people getting their devices searched not the ones crossing easily. The chances of this happening to you are slim to none. I am not saying no one should be worried, I am just saying OP should not.

Iv 9y ago

My solution has been to not go to the US, but that is not always doable. An interesting solution is to give something else to the border to worry about. Something perfectly legal but that would focus their attention. Like a perfectly registered and legally transported gun. Or some flour in plastic bags. Or a bottle of whiskey.

nucleardog 9y ago
As a guy that's had my phone searched by customs a dozen times now, been put in windowless rooms while my car was tossed, held for four hours in the same room as my car while they pulled panels off, etc... I had a lot fewer issues crossing the border once I stopped being so organized. When I checked in for my flight I didn't have my passport itself on me, just the number. The airline I was using asked for an expiration date. I remembered the month and year but not the day... So I just picked a day. When I cleared customs, the guy was so busy correcting the expiration date on the computer that he wasn't even listening to my answer to his questions. On the way back, I was switching airlines, and the originating airline was unable to print me a boarding pass for the flight they'd put me on. When I got to customs and they asked for paperwork, they also asked for my boarding pass for my final flight. When I didn't have one, they sent me to get one from the airline and then literally waved me through when I came back. Once I noticed this, I started to think back... The least hassle I've had clearing security was when I did dumb things like leave a lighter in my pocket when I went to the airport. As soon as they found the lighter, they just took it away and admonished me and sent me on my way. For the most part, if you haven't given them a reason to be suspicious, once they find something it seems they stop looking.

3pt14159 9y ago

Just apply for Nexus. You're harmless. They'll do supreme vetting once and you'll avoid any stupid power tripping boarder guards after that. Since I got that I've spent under 5 mins at the boarder each time.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

If you feel strongly about the cause, maybe you can just donate to the EFF and ACLU rather than possibly causing yourself a bad day.