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Yes, and I guarantee you will not find any speech or writing by Trump that says some class of people in the USA needs to be "exterminated". The analogy breaks d

by defen 9y ago

Yes, and I guarantee you will not find any speech or writing by Trump that says some class of people in the USA needs to be "exterminated". The analogy breaks down at that point. The logical leap comes at the step from "Trump is prejudiced against X" to "Trump wants to commit mass murder against X" With Hitler, he explicitly proclaimed the need for genocide at the time that he was in jail and his movement consisted of about 600 guys in Bavaria (e.g. he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany and riding it up. He created it)

anigbrowl 9y ago
Hitler did not create anti-semitism or the concept of genocide. You claim that 'he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany' is wrong to the point of cluelessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_during_the_Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_duri... The link above focuses on European antisemitism in particular and subsequent sections outline its geography and persistence into the early 20th century. Hitler certainly believed in this idea, as opposed to cynically exploited it for political gain, but to suggest that he created it is...absurd. Also, the question of the degree to which Hitler aimed at genocide is a contested one. His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 (which took such a severe toll on combatants of both sides that gas was subsequently outlawed as a weapon of war). Personally I think Hitler wanted to kill off the Jews, albeit in a vague, non-specific way from which others took their cue. According to the article below this would be considered a synthesis of the functional and intentional positions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intention...
- defen 9y ago
  I'm not claiming he created anti-semitism or the concept of genocide - both obviously existed before Hitler; but it's my understanding that anti-Jewish bigotry was far worse in eastern Europe than it was in Germany, so I think it's worthwhile to figure out why Germany was the source of the Holocaust and not, say, Poland or the USSR. > His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 He said "The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated." Edit: looked at another way - let's say Trump ends up not presiding over a genocide. Are the "Trump is like Hitler" people going to say they were wrong, or are they going to claim credit for preventing a genocide that would have happened without their efforts? I don't know how either side can prove its case; it comes down to who can construct the more persuasive counterfactual. To me the "Trump is not going to preside over a genocide no matter what efforts are or are not taken against him" is more persuasive.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    The precise course and direction of European anti-semitic currents in the 20th century is a fascinating one, but not really within the scope of any HN comment - as the link I shared above demonstrates, whole books have been written arguing different aspects of that topic. I don't get the point of your optimistic hypothetical, which seems to vague to admit of a specific answer. I'm more concerned with the present reality of ICE seeking to accelerate its ability to destroy records of death sin custody etc., since oversight and accountability in the immigration detention system is already notoriously poor. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14834/records-schedules-availability-and-request-for-comments#p-20 https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14...

by defen 9y ago

anigbrowl 9y ago

Hitler did not create anti-semitism or the concept of genocide. You claim that 'he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany' is wrong to the point of cluelessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_during_the_Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_duri... The link above focuses on European antisemitism in particular and subsequent sections outline its geography and persistence into the early 20th century. Hitler certainly believed in this idea, as opposed to cynically exploited it for political gain, but to suggest that he created it is...absurd. Also, the question of the degree to which Hitler aimed at genocide is a contested one. His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 (which took such a severe toll on combatants of both sides that gas was subsequently outlawed as a weapon of war). Personally I think Hitler wanted to kill off the Jews, albeit in a vague, non-specific way from which others took their cue. According to the article below this would be considered a synthesis of the functional and intentional positions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intention...

defen 9y ago
I'm not claiming he created anti-semitism or the concept of genocide - both obviously existed before Hitler; but it's my understanding that anti-Jewish bigotry was far worse in eastern Europe than it was in Germany, so I think it's worthwhile to figure out why Germany was the source of the Holocaust and not, say, Poland or the USSR. > His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 He said "The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated." Edit: looked at another way - let's say Trump ends up not presiding over a genocide. Are the "Trump is like Hitler" people going to say they were wrong, or are they going to claim credit for preventing a genocide that would have happened without their efforts? I don't know how either side can prove its case; it comes down to who can construct the more persuasive counterfactual. To me the "Trump is not going to preside over a genocide no matter what efforts are or are not taken against him" is more persuasive.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  The precise course and direction of European anti-semitic currents in the 20th century is a fascinating one, but not really within the scope of any HN comment - as the link I shared above demonstrates, whole books have been written arguing different aspects of that topic. I don't get the point of your optimistic hypothetical, which seems to vague to admit of a specific answer. I'm more concerned with the present reality of ICE seeking to accelerate its ability to destroy records of death sin custody etc., since oversight and accountability in the immigration detention system is already notoriously poor. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14834/records-schedules-availability-and-request-for-comments#p-20 https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/07/14/2017-14...