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I would say the two main differences are: The leader of the Nazis was writing about the need to exterminate the Jews well before he had any sort of political po

by defen 9y ago

I would say the two main differences are: The leader of the Nazis was writing about the need to exterminate the Jews well before he had any sort of political power, so we can't really say it's surprising he ended up trying to do that once he had power. There's no analogous thing for Trump. Similarly, the judiciary was sympathetic to pre-power Hitler, letting him make long impassioned speeches at his trial for treason, which ended up netting him just 9 months in prison. Trump doesn't need that kind of thing for publicity in this day and age, but I think it's fair to say that the judiciary views him as an embarrassment at best, or hates him.

enraged_camel 9y ago
>>The leader of the Nazis was writing about the need to exterminate the Jews well before he had any sort of political power, so we can't really say it's surprising he ended up trying to do that once he had power. There's no analogous thing for Trump. Uh, what? Trump absolutely used racist, hateful rhetoric to rile up his base and get elected. Have you listened to any of his campaign speeches? Any of the debates?
- ameister14 9y ago
  I have yet to see anywhere that Trump said a type of people should be exterminated. Mostly he said that people shouldn't enter the country illegally and take our jobs. Racist, not the same thing.
  - legostormtroopr 9y ago
    Can you explain exactly how the idea that "people shouldn't enter the country illegally and take our jobs" is racist? Why is enforcing well known national borders and stopping people crossing in an incontrolled fashion racist?
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      The claims of immigrants stealing jobs isn't founded in fact, and the penalties for illegal entry are wildly disproportionate compared to other countries or other kinds of administrative violations in US law. It must take considerable effort to maintain oblivion to the tide of ethnic slanders from certain quarters over the last couple of years.
      - weberc2 9y ago
        > It must take considerable effort to maintain oblivion to the tide of ethnic slanders from certain quarters over the last couple of years. Quite the opposite; it takes tremendous effort to infer racism where none obviously exists. In particular, millions of people are violating the law even with its severe penalties, suggesting that the penalties aren't severe enough. Banning hispanics from entering the US by any means is racist, banning immigrants of any nationality from entering the U.S. illegally is, by definition, not racist. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't have the slightest idea what "racism" means. Of course, opposing illegal immigration doesn't mean that someone isn't racist; it simply isn't evidence (much less 'proof') of racism.
- defen 9y ago
  Yes, and I guarantee you will not find any speech or writing by Trump that says some class of people in the USA needs to be "exterminated". The analogy breaks down at that point. The logical leap comes at the step from "Trump is prejudiced against X" to "Trump wants to commit mass murder against X" With Hitler, he explicitly proclaimed the need for genocide at the time that he was in jail and his movement consisted of about 600 guys in Bavaria (e.g. he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany and riding it up. He created it)
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    Hitler did not create anti-semitism or the concept of genocide. You claim that 'he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany' is wrong to the point of cluelessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_during_the_Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_duri... The link above focuses on European antisemitism in particular and subsequent sections outline its geography and persistence into the early 20th century. Hitler certainly believed in this idea, as opposed to cynically exploited it for political gain, but to suggest that he created it is...absurd. Also, the question of the degree to which Hitler aimed at genocide is a contested one. His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 (which took such a severe toll on combatants of both sides that gas was subsequently outlawed as a weapon of war). Personally I think Hitler wanted to kill off the Jews, albeit in a vague, non-specific way from which others took their cue. According to the article below this would be considered a synthesis of the functional and intentional positions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intention...
    - defen 9y ago
      I'm not claiming he created anti-semitism or the concept of genocide - both obviously existed before Hitler; but it's my understanding that anti-Jewish bigotry was far worse in eastern Europe than it was in Germany, so I think it's worthwhile to figure out why Germany was the source of the Holocaust and not, say, Poland or the USSR. > His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 He said "The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated." Edit: looked at another way - let's say Trump ends up not presiding over a genocide. Are the "Trump is like Hitler" people going to say they were wrong, or are they going to claim credit for preventing a genocide that would have happened without their efforts? I don't know how either side can prove its case; it comes down to who can construct the more persuasive counterfactual. To me the "Trump is not going to preside over a genocide no matter what efforts are or are not taken against him" is more persuasive.
gras 9y ago
(Did Hitler ever talk about exterminating the Jews? I thought that was a baseless claim with no evidence.) Oy vey, I was mistaken! There's no documentation of him actually ordering "the final solution" but he did publicly state his intent.

by defen 9y ago

enraged_camel 9y ago

>>The leader of the Nazis was writing about the need to exterminate the Jews well before he had any sort of political power, so we can't really say it's surprising he ended up trying to do that once he had power. There's no analogous thing for Trump. Uh, what? Trump absolutely used racist, hateful rhetoric to rile up his base and get elected. Have you listened to any of his campaign speeches? Any of the debates?

ameister14 9y ago
I have yet to see anywhere that Trump said a type of people should be exterminated. Mostly he said that people shouldn't enter the country illegally and take our jobs. Racist, not the same thing.
- legostormtroopr 9y ago
  Can you explain exactly how the idea that "people shouldn't enter the country illegally and take our jobs" is racist? Why is enforcing well known national borders and stopping people crossing in an incontrolled fashion racist?
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    The claims of immigrants stealing jobs isn't founded in fact, and the penalties for illegal entry are wildly disproportionate compared to other countries or other kinds of administrative violations in US law. It must take considerable effort to maintain oblivion to the tide of ethnic slanders from certain quarters over the last couple of years.
    - weberc2 9y ago
      > It must take considerable effort to maintain oblivion to the tide of ethnic slanders from certain quarters over the last couple of years. Quite the opposite; it takes tremendous effort to infer racism where none obviously exists. In particular, millions of people are violating the law even with its severe penalties, suggesting that the penalties aren't severe enough. Banning hispanics from entering the US by any means is racist, banning immigrants of any nationality from entering the U.S. illegally is, by definition, not racist. Anyone who suggests otherwise doesn't have the slightest idea what "racism" means. Of course, opposing illegal immigration doesn't mean that someone isn't racist; it simply isn't evidence (much less 'proof') of racism.
defen 9y ago
Yes, and I guarantee you will not find any speech or writing by Trump that says some class of people in the USA needs to be "exterminated". The analogy breaks down at that point. The logical leap comes at the step from "Trump is prejudiced against X" to "Trump wants to commit mass murder against X" With Hitler, he explicitly proclaimed the need for genocide at the time that he was in jail and his movement consisted of about 600 guys in Bavaria (e.g. he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany and riding it up. He created it)
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  Hitler did not create anti-semitism or the concept of genocide. You claim that 'he wasn't simply glomming onto some broader social trend in Germany' is wrong to the point of cluelessness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_during_the_Middle_Ages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Persecutions_duri... The link above focuses on European antisemitism in particular and subsequent sections outline its geography and persistence into the early 20th century. Hitler certainly believed in this idea, as opposed to cynically exploited it for political gain, but to suggest that he created it is...absurd. Also, the question of the degree to which Hitler aimed at genocide is a contested one. His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 (which took such a severe toll on combatants of both sides that gas was subsequently outlawed as a weapon of war). Personally I think Hitler wanted to kill off the Jews, albeit in a vague, non-specific way from which others took their cue. According to the article below this would be considered a synthesis of the functional and intentional positions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intention...
  - defen 9y ago
    I'm not claiming he created anti-semitism or the concept of genocide - both obviously existed before Hitler; but it's my understanding that anti-Jewish bigotry was far worse in eastern Europe than it was in Germany, so I think it's worthwhile to figure out why Germany was the source of the Holocaust and not, say, Poland or the USSR. > His only explicit statement on the subject in Mein Kampf, for example, is an expression of regret that Jews weren't subject to poison gassing in World War 1 He said "The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated." Edit: looked at another way - let's say Trump ends up not presiding over a genocide. Are the "Trump is like Hitler" people going to say they were wrong, or are they going to claim credit for preventing a genocide that would have happened without their efforts? I don't know how either side can prove its case; it comes down to who can construct the more persuasive counterfactual. To me the "Trump is not going to preside over a genocide no matter what efforts are or are not taken against him" is more persuasive.

gras 9y ago

(Did Hitler ever talk about exterminating the Jews? I thought that was a baseless claim with no evidence.) Oy vey, I was mistaken! There's no documentation of him actually ordering "the final solution" but he did publicly state his intent.