4 ms·

Here is a parable: They came for the murderers and put them in prison. They didn't come for me because I'm not a murderer, and we're broadly ok with seeing mu

Here is a parable: They came for the murderers and put them in prison. They didn't come for me because I'm not a murderer, and we're broadly ok with seeing murderers as being bad for society. I'm not saying that your quote doesn't have power - it does. But the important aspect of it is that the targets were people the subject knows were being unfairly treated. So yes, if they start locking up homosexuals or Muslims or jews I'll refer to that parable and think "shit - I'd best do something". As things stand I'm not getting out of bed to help a nazi.

zzzcpan 9y ago
You are equating a real victimized crime, like murder, with a thought crime, like following a nazi ideology.
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  Worth noting no one is going to jail for being a Nazi (except the ones that are actually killing people). Private companies are just choosing not to do business with them; because, turns out associating with people that think killing minorities for the glory of the master race is a good idea tends to be bad for business. Who could have guessed?
- chc 9y ago
  I am having a hard time figuring out if this is a strange joke I'm failing to get or if you actually mean to suggest that Nazism is victimless.
- bduerst 9y ago
  Isn't consuming child porn just a thought crime? I think you may be splitting hairs when the ideology promotes hate crime & harm to others.
  - Zuider 9y ago
    Believing NAMBLA'a propaganda is a thought crime. By contrast, actually viewing indecent images of children involves participating in a crime committed by the creator of those images. Similarly, the demented ravings of The Daily Stormer are thought crime. Racially motivated abuse and violence are actual crimes.
    - bduerst 9y ago
      You just reiterated my point: Thought crimes can involve participating in, or contributing to, crimes committed by other people (as you just elaborated). That's why as a society we ban consumption of child pornography and other types of thought crimes - because they involve harming others.
- Pharylon 9y ago
  The Nazi ideology is to commit genocide. There's an argument to be made that being a Nazi is the equivalent of planning a murder. Let's not kid ourselves. If these guys took over, they'd kill people, and they're not shy about admitting it.
  - colordrops 9y ago
    The problem is that the white power groups are not monolithic, and there are subgroups that do not promote genocide, and actually don't even promote violence. Invariably though they all get grouped under the moniker "Nazi". Now mind you, I still find racist ideologies abhorrent, but in the end, they are constitutionally protected speech, "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security", "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", and "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" It's really a bad slippery slope to start finding new exceptions where censorship is ok. It just shows that you don't understand how free speech works. Until crimes are committed, I don't care if your ideology is universal destruction. You should be left alone.
    - Pharylon 9y ago
      First, we're not talking about any random group of white supremacists. We're talking about literal Nazis. Second, the slippery slope is a fallacy. Literally. The "slippery slope fallacy" is a textbook fallacy. In this instance, many countries make it illegal to espouse Nazi ideology today, yet Germany and France haven't become dystopian dictatorships. "If we outlaw gun ownership for the mentally ill, that's a slippery slope to outlawing all firearms." "If we outlaw same sex marriage, that's a slippery slope to outlawing all marriage." "If we outlaw cocaine, that's a slippery slope to outlawing beer." All of those make just as much sense as a slippery slope of outlawing Nazis.
      - colordrops 9y ago
        Calling out "logical fallacies" is a knee-jerk reaction when you don't have a realistic response. It is not a fallacy to think that if we ban a previously allowed form of speech, it would set precedent to make it easier to ban other forms of speech. I said nothing of leading to dictatorship. The slippery slope I'm talking about leads to the lack of free speech, which is realistic. Furthermore, there is nothing in our legal system that bans Nazis. Fuck Nazis, and fuck their ideology, but free speech is more important. The US legal system bans crimes, not thought systems. If you don't like that, then push for constitutional amendments, but as it stands now, they are exercising free speech.
- musage 9y ago
  There is no Nazi "ideology" without victims. That is, there is no ideology that can't shift on a penny, but there's always resentment and powerlessness (as well as the megalomania that accompanies them) projected on those to be made victims. In a way, that's way older and way broader than actual Nazism, but the historic Nazis showed the horrible depths of it. Nazis aren't about a specific set of "enemies", with Nazism becoming peaceful as soon as those are exterminated, it's more about constantly inventing enemies and sub-distinctions. It's flight from self, nihilism made movement. And even if everybody makes the Hitler salute, you can always rank them by enthusiasm and kill the least enthusiastic 5%. A boot (not a human foot) on a human face, forever, an endlessly restricting noose of hatred, and endless rush of power that doesn't fulfill or give happiness but does destroy and cause anguish. That's (one way to describe) Nazism. That's why you treat even one grain of it very seriously. And while there is abuse of the word "Nazi" or even "Neo-Nazi", and we could argue a lot about what should be called what, just look at all the possible meanings of common words like "get", and notice how we don't get confused about that most of the time. Worrying more about what something is called than what something is much more constructive. Though I'm not saying this as an argument to censor anyone.. not because I'm necessarily against it in all cases, but because I don't like the framing of that. When societies breed alienation and isolation, where so many kids are left to their own devices (I didn't aim for that pun but I'll keep it) in an onslaught of vapid or even cynical pandering and product shoveling, Neo-Nazis are just one of the predictable results of that, it's one of the ways a human can break. It's like Mikado sticks (fasces?), when you let go of a bundle, I can't tell you which one will fall to the top right, but I can pretty much assume some will fall there. And the discussion is kind of futile when it starts history with the still image of a distribution of sticks, and kind of nauseating when it comes with too much self-righteousness. Are we to be applauded for not being Neo-Nazis, or should we be grateful we didn't have such a bad childhood or other reasons to be susceptible to it? We tend to leave people by the wayside until they're old enough to run amok or join a cult or whatever. By that time it's kind of too late for good results, at that point it's like war with no winners. Of course, that's out of scope for "do I host this or don't I?", but I have to get it off my chest (every time this subject comes up). While I'm rambling, how about freaky third answers, like host it under the condition they have to have an externally hosted comment system for every article, moderated by the UN? Don't shut them up, but don't allow them to shut up discussion about their "ideas" either. I'm not sure about actual Nazis, but for all sorts of grey areas, that's at least a thought?
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  It's really the post above that which does so, by putting child abuse and political affiliation on the same plane. Now when it comes to political ideologies, the difference between thought crimes and real-world actions is not so clear. Someone might believe in nazi ideology, vote accordingly, discriminate in their personal or professional lives based on that, but not be any sort of public activist - that's what I'd call a 'thought crime.' It's their right to hold such a position no matter how repulsive I find it. There is a qualitative difference when someone steps into actively promoting such ideologies (eg waving nazi flags or participating in marches). The thing about nazi ideology is that it's explicitly grounded in the elimination of some people and the subjugation of the rest, and rejection of the democratic principle in favor of leadership from above. When you get to people who express support for specific policies like genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. and who organize in pursuit of that objective, it seems to me that they've passed out of the realms of 'thought crime' and into actively threatening demographic groups and their members.

zzzcpan 9y ago

You are equating a real victimized crime, like murder, with a thought crime, like following a nazi ideology.

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
Worth noting no one is going to jail for being a Nazi (except the ones that are actually killing people). Private companies are just choosing not to do business with them; because, turns out associating with people that think killing minorities for the glory of the master race is a good idea tends to be bad for business. Who could have guessed?
chc 9y ago
I am having a hard time figuring out if this is a strange joke I'm failing to get or if you actually mean to suggest that Nazism is victimless.
bduerst 9y ago
Isn't consuming child porn just a thought crime? I think you may be splitting hairs when the ideology promotes hate crime & harm to others.
- Zuider 9y ago
  Believing NAMBLA'a propaganda is a thought crime. By contrast, actually viewing indecent images of children involves participating in a crime committed by the creator of those images. Similarly, the demented ravings of The Daily Stormer are thought crime. Racially motivated abuse and violence are actual crimes.
  - bduerst 9y ago
    You just reiterated my point: Thought crimes can involve participating in, or contributing to, crimes committed by other people (as you just elaborated). That's why as a society we ban consumption of child pornography and other types of thought crimes - because they involve harming others.
Pharylon 9y ago
The Nazi ideology is to commit genocide. There's an argument to be made that being a Nazi is the equivalent of planning a murder. Let's not kid ourselves. If these guys took over, they'd kill people, and they're not shy about admitting it.
- colordrops 9y ago
  The problem is that the white power groups are not monolithic, and there are subgroups that do not promote genocide, and actually don't even promote violence. Invariably though they all get grouped under the moniker "Nazi". Now mind you, I still find racist ideologies abhorrent, but in the end, they are constitutionally protected speech, "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security", "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it", and "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me" It's really a bad slippery slope to start finding new exceptions where censorship is ok. It just shows that you don't understand how free speech works. Until crimes are committed, I don't care if your ideology is universal destruction. You should be left alone.
  - Pharylon 9y ago
    First, we're not talking about any random group of white supremacists. We're talking about literal Nazis. Second, the slippery slope is a fallacy. Literally. The "slippery slope fallacy" is a textbook fallacy. In this instance, many countries make it illegal to espouse Nazi ideology today, yet Germany and France haven't become dystopian dictatorships. "If we outlaw gun ownership for the mentally ill, that's a slippery slope to outlawing all firearms." "If we outlaw same sex marriage, that's a slippery slope to outlawing all marriage." "If we outlaw cocaine, that's a slippery slope to outlawing beer." All of those make just as much sense as a slippery slope of outlawing Nazis.
    - colordrops 9y ago
      Calling out "logical fallacies" is a knee-jerk reaction when you don't have a realistic response. It is not a fallacy to think that if we ban a previously allowed form of speech, it would set precedent to make it easier to ban other forms of speech. I said nothing of leading to dictatorship. The slippery slope I'm talking about leads to the lack of free speech, which is realistic. Furthermore, there is nothing in our legal system that bans Nazis. Fuck Nazis, and fuck their ideology, but free speech is more important. The US legal system bans crimes, not thought systems. If you don't like that, then push for constitutional amendments, but as it stands now, they are exercising free speech.
musage 9y ago
There is no Nazi "ideology" without victims. That is, there is no ideology that can't shift on a penny, but there's always resentment and powerlessness (as well as the megalomania that accompanies them) projected on those to be made victims. In a way, that's way older and way broader than actual Nazism, but the historic Nazis showed the horrible depths of it. Nazis aren't about a specific set of "enemies", with Nazism becoming peaceful as soon as those are exterminated, it's more about constantly inventing enemies and sub-distinctions. It's flight from self, nihilism made movement. And even if everybody makes the Hitler salute, you can always rank them by enthusiasm and kill the least enthusiastic 5%. A boot (not a human foot) on a human face, forever, an endlessly restricting noose of hatred, and endless rush of power that doesn't fulfill or give happiness but does destroy and cause anguish. That's (one way to describe) Nazism. That's why you treat even one grain of it very seriously. And while there is abuse of the word "Nazi" or even "Neo-Nazi", and we could argue a lot about what should be called what, just look at all the possible meanings of common words like "get", and notice how we don't get confused about that most of the time. Worrying more about what something is called than what something is much more constructive. Though I'm not saying this as an argument to censor anyone.. not because I'm necessarily against it in all cases, but because I don't like the framing of that. When societies breed alienation and isolation, where so many kids are left to their own devices (I didn't aim for that pun but I'll keep it) in an onslaught of vapid or even cynical pandering and product shoveling, Neo-Nazis are just one of the predictable results of that, it's one of the ways a human can break. It's like Mikado sticks (fasces?), when you let go of a bundle, I can't tell you which one will fall to the top right, but I can pretty much assume some will fall there. And the discussion is kind of futile when it starts history with the still image of a distribution of sticks, and kind of nauseating when it comes with too much self-righteousness. Are we to be applauded for not being Neo-Nazis, or should we be grateful we didn't have such a bad childhood or other reasons to be susceptible to it? We tend to leave people by the wayside until they're old enough to run amok or join a cult or whatever. By that time it's kind of too late for good results, at that point it's like war with no winners. Of course, that's out of scope for "do I host this or don't I?", but I have to get it off my chest (every time this subject comes up). While I'm rambling, how about freaky third answers, like host it under the condition they have to have an externally hosted comment system for every article, moderated by the UN? Don't shut them up, but don't allow them to shut up discussion about their "ideas" either. I'm not sure about actual Nazis, but for all sorts of grey areas, that's at least a thought?
anigbrowl 9y ago
It's really the post above that which does so, by putting child abuse and political affiliation on the same plane. Now when it comes to political ideologies, the difference between thought crimes and real-world actions is not so clear. Someone might believe in nazi ideology, vote accordingly, discriminate in their personal or professional lives based on that, but not be any sort of public activist - that's what I'd call a 'thought crime.' It's their right to hold such a position no matter how repulsive I find it. There is a qualitative difference when someone steps into actively promoting such ideologies (eg waving nazi flags or participating in marches). The thing about nazi ideology is that it's explicitly grounded in the elimination of some people and the subjugation of the rest, and rejection of the democratic principle in favor of leadership from above. When you get to people who express support for specific policies like genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. and who organize in pursuit of that objective, it seems to me that they've passed out of the realms of 'thought crime' and into actively threatening demographic groups and their members.