7 ms·

I think that regardless of your social or political stance of anything regarding males, females, workplaces, salaries, or sexism, more data is always nice to ha

I think that regardless of your social or political stance of anything regarding males, females, workplaces, salaries, or sexism, more data is always nice to have. Now I'm going to figure out how to twist this into fitting my own personal world view and then make a news article about it.

justinjlynn 9y ago
> Now I'm going to figure out how to twist this into fitting my own personal world view and then make a news article about it. Not cynical enough. 5/10
- komali2 9y ago
  Not obfuscated enough. 27/54
paulddraper 9y ago
Data is nice, but please don't forget lots and lots of anecotes in your article!
- scarmig 9y ago
  There's a study that indicates an interesting trend: you can have articles that have hard data, have soft anecdotes, or have both. Of those, the ones that try to do both are significantly less convincing than the ones that solely focus on one approach. I know a guy who loves articles that do both though, so YMMV.
  - malandrew 9y ago
    Have a citation for that with data?
    - scarmig 9y ago
      So, having spent some time trying to track it down, the best I found was [0], which wasn't nearly as strong as I suggested: "In an experiment, people read a realistic persuasive message that was relevant to them. Results showed that anecdotal evidence does not benefit from the inclusion of statistical evidence or from its intrinsic quality." I originally heard about this from Kevin Drum [1], but I was unable to track down the actual study he alludes to. That said, he does link to an interview [2] with... an anecdote about the use of data: "We have an experiment of helping a starving child. A certain percentage of people help [by donating money to the kid]. Then we have another condition with a different group, same child, same situation, except we put the numbers of the statistics of starvation next to her picture, and the donations dropped in half." [0] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163853X.2017.1312195 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163853X.2017.13... [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/facts-or-anecdotes-pick-one-and-stick-with-it/ http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/facts-or-anecd... [2] https://www.vox.com/explainers/2017/7/19/15925506/psychic-numbing-paul-slovic-apathy https://www.vox.com/explainers/2017/7/19/15925506/psychic-nu...
      - yorwba 9y ago
        What about the other direction; do pure statistics benefit from the inclusion of anecdotes? I would expect that to be the case, at least in the general population; but you seem to say that it's not.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    When I see an article that starts out with a "soft anecdote" I'm immediately put off because it seems like an attempt to manipulate my emotions. That's not really necessary if you have the data to support your point, so my first inclination is your data is weak and you're trying to slip something by me.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      The "soft anecdote" is for the people who are bored by hard numbers and wouldn't read to the end if they didn't want to find out how the story ends. And right at the bottom is a carousel to take them to the next similar article. So, yes, it's an attempt to manipulate emotions, but it doesn't have to mean that the data doesn't support the overall point. A clickbaity headline isn't indicative of a bad article either, it just hints at the readership they're trying to attract.
  - toomanybeersies 9y ago
    You don't have me convinced with your comment...
anotherbrownguy 9y ago
Remember to take the most debatable data points, assume them to be facts and overgeneralize them to show how it is an indication of something systemic.
- andreasklinger 9y ago
  Also in case you assume correlation jump ahead and be sure it's causation.
zwerdlds 9y ago
Your statement has the potential to offend me. /s
seanalltogether 9y ago
If these circles had average salaries attached to them, I'm sure the article would write itself.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Assuming you mean that men have jobs with higher average salaries, there are still implications beyond that. Do men have higher salaries because they are more likely to consider salary when choosing a job? Do women have lower salaries due to sexism? Some combination of the two? Something else?
  - imron 9y ago
    > Something else? Here's one more thing that might be a confounding factor - taller people have higher salaries [0], and on average men are taller than women. Maybe just a spurious correlation [1], but still interesting to think about. 0: https://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html https://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.ht... 1: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
    - derefr 9y ago
      I'd love to know if women as tall as men get paid closer to men's salaries, as a group.
      - belorn 9y ago
        It would be odd if hight was the only factor. The question I would like to know is how large the height factor is to other measurable effects.
    - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
      I did notice (anecdotal) that people in management are usually taller. Taller than me I might add, and I'm a solid 6'2" (which is like... slightly above average in NL). A lot of people in management are closer to 6'6" (2 meters).
rdiddly 9y ago
Here, I'll give you some clickbait headlines for it. Choose at will. Study: Workforce Is Changing, Yet Same Old Injustice Remains Is Your Daughter Thinking of Being a Carpenter? Don't Bet On It! The Disappearing Culture of Male Shoe Machine Operators/Tenders The Most Male-Dominated Professions On Earth We Set Out To Find What Jobs Are the Most "Male" - Here's What Happened Next! This One Job Outpaced All Others For Attracting Women Study Reveals Gender Bias in Every Single Job - Here Are Some of the Worst... And the Not-So-Bad
halloij 9y ago
Hint: Over the same time period, womens own reported "happiness" has gradually and steadily declined. Well done ladies! You made yourselves miserable

justinjlynn 9y ago

> Now I'm going to figure out how to twist this into fitting my own personal world view and then make a news article about it. Not cynical enough. 5/10

komali2 9y ago
Not obfuscated enough. 27/54

paulddraper 9y ago

Data is nice, but please don't forget lots and lots of anecotes in your article!

scarmig 9y ago
There's a study that indicates an interesting trend: you can have articles that have hard data, have soft anecdotes, or have both. Of those, the ones that try to do both are significantly less convincing than the ones that solely focus on one approach. I know a guy who loves articles that do both though, so YMMV.
- malandrew 9y ago
  Have a citation for that with data?
  - scarmig 9y ago
    So, having spent some time trying to track it down, the best I found was [0], which wasn't nearly as strong as I suggested: "In an experiment, people read a realistic persuasive message that was relevant to them. Results showed that anecdotal evidence does not benefit from the inclusion of statistical evidence or from its intrinsic quality." I originally heard about this from Kevin Drum [1], but I was unable to track down the actual study he alludes to. That said, he does link to an interview [2] with... an anecdote about the use of data: "We have an experiment of helping a starving child. A certain percentage of people help [by donating money to the kid]. Then we have another condition with a different group, same child, same situation, except we put the numbers of the statistics of starvation next to her picture, and the donations dropped in half." [0] http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163853X.2017.1312195 http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163853X.2017.13... [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/facts-or-anecdotes-pick-one-and-stick-with-it/ http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/08/facts-or-anecd... [2] https://www.vox.com/explainers/2017/7/19/15925506/psychic-numbing-paul-slovic-apathy https://www.vox.com/explainers/2017/7/19/15925506/psychic-nu...
    - yorwba 9y ago
      What about the other direction; do pure statistics benefit from the inclusion of anecdotes? I would expect that to be the case, at least in the general population; but you seem to say that it's not.
- gozur88 9y ago
  When I see an article that starts out with a "soft anecdote" I'm immediately put off because it seems like an attempt to manipulate my emotions. That's not really necessary if you have the data to support your point, so my first inclination is your data is weak and you're trying to slip something by me.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    The "soft anecdote" is for the people who are bored by hard numbers and wouldn't read to the end if they didn't want to find out how the story ends. And right at the bottom is a carousel to take them to the next similar article. So, yes, it's an attempt to manipulate emotions, but it doesn't have to mean that the data doesn't support the overall point. A clickbaity headline isn't indicative of a bad article either, it just hints at the readership they're trying to attract.
- toomanybeersies 9y ago
  You don't have me convinced with your comment...

anotherbrownguy 9y ago

Remember to take the most debatable data points, assume them to be facts and overgeneralize them to show how it is an indication of something systemic.

andreasklinger 9y ago
Also in case you assume correlation jump ahead and be sure it's causation.

zwerdlds 9y ago

Your statement has the potential to offend me. /s

seanalltogether 9y ago

If these circles had average salaries attached to them, I'm sure the article would write itself.

humanrebar 9y ago
Assuming you mean that men have jobs with higher average salaries, there are still implications beyond that. Do men have higher salaries because they are more likely to consider salary when choosing a job? Do women have lower salaries due to sexism? Some combination of the two? Something else?
- imron 9y ago
  > Something else? Here's one more thing that might be a confounding factor - taller people have higher salaries [0], and on average men are taller than women. Maybe just a spurious correlation [1], but still interesting to think about. 0: https://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html https://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.ht... 1: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
  - derefr 9y ago
    I'd love to know if women as tall as men get paid closer to men's salaries, as a group.
    - belorn 9y ago
      It would be odd if hight was the only factor. The question I would like to know is how large the height factor is to other measurable effects.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    I did notice (anecdotal) that people in management are usually taller. Taller than me I might add, and I'm a solid 6'2" (which is like... slightly above average in NL). A lot of people in management are closer to 6'6" (2 meters).

rdiddly 9y ago

Here, I'll give you some clickbait headlines for it. Choose at will. Study: Workforce Is Changing, Yet Same Old Injustice Remains Is Your Daughter Thinking of Being a Carpenter? Don't Bet On It! The Disappearing Culture of Male Shoe Machine Operators/Tenders The Most Male-Dominated Professions On Earth We Set Out To Find What Jobs Are the Most "Male" - Here's What Happened Next! This One Job Outpaced All Others For Attracting Women Study Reveals Gender Bias in Every Single Job - Here Are Some of the Worst... And the Not-So-Bad

halloij 9y ago

Hint: Over the same time period, womens own reported "happiness" has gradually and steadily declined. Well done ladies! You made yourselves miserable