5 ms·

Did you miss the part where the U.S. has been giving tremendous support to the SDF/YPG in its fight against ISIS?

baursak 9y ago
This literally started a couple of months ago under Trump, along with ending CIA's weapons running program. Here Trump truly deserves credit and outshines Nobel Peace laureate Obama. If he removes PKK from the US list of terrorist groups, that would be a 3 for 3 for him, although I'm not holding my breath.
- notfromhere 9y ago
  US has been supporting the Kurds longer than trump's term in office
  - baursak 9y ago
    Not sure what you mean by "Kurds". Why is PKK still a designated terrorist group?
    - megous 9y ago
      Obviously some Kurds in north-east of Syria. I'm not sure there's any support of Kurds on the Turkey side, where Kurdish cities are being razed to the ground last several years. It's not even in the news that much compared to the other stuff from the region. Yet there is million or more of internally displaced people by this violence.
    - frandroid 9y ago
      Because NATO.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    The level of support is what's important. Under previous administration the support was on a very low side and much more support was thrown behind sunni states (Turkey for example) and extremist sunni militias. This has changed under Trump and it seems like the support will be shifted away from extremist sunni militias and towards Kurds. I have to give Trump credit for this.
  - mentalpiracy 9y ago
    We have been supporting the Kurds, yes - but our support is schizophrenic at best. Though the Kurds are almost everything the US could want in a mideast ally - moderate, self-sustaining and stable, demonstrably capable - we will probably never embrace them fully due to our relationship with Turkey. Some backstory: Turkey lists the PKK as a terrorist organization, as Ankara and PKK have been fighting a separatist conflict for decades. Though the PKK has never targeted Americans, the US still lists the PKK as a terror org to placate Ankara. The US has invested in Turkey as a strategic regional ally since the Cold War. Geographically Turkey was a key bulwark against Soviet power, and indeed we housed nuclear missiles within Turkish territory for many years. Even after the USSR collapsed, Turkey's regional value to the United States has grown. Incirlik is one of the largest air bases in the world, and remains a key logistical point for our military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. Turkey was also important to the US ideologically because they were a stable, moderate, secular Muslim state, e.g. the kind of country we wanted to serve as a template for the rest of the Middle East. Thanks to Erdogan, this value has decreased sharply thanks to his moves to consolidate autocratic power at the expense of the still largely secular and moderate Turkish populace. (Tried to keep the value judgements out of that, sorry if I offended someone by summarizing too generally).
    - mengibar10 9y ago
      PKK is a terrorist organization because they have been killing civilians. Especially indiscriminate killings through bombings market places, public meetings. Most of the time their victims have been Kurdish people. A terrorist is a terrorist only when Americans are targeted?
      - baursak 9y ago
        Do you mind posting links from reputable sources (i.e. not blatant Turkish government propaganda)?
        mengibar10 9y ago
        http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-blast/kurdish-militants-claim-responsibility-for-istanbul-attack-that-killed-38-idUSKBN14007C http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-blast/kurdish-milit... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/10/bomb-outside-istanbul-football-stadium-causes-multiple-casualties https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/10/bomb-outside-i... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/explosions-reported-turkey-istanbul-161210193908896.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/explosions-reported-tu...
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  The PKK is responsible for killing over 30,000 Turkish civilians back in the 80s and 90s. That's roughly ten times the number of people that died in 9/11 attacks. If that doesn't make them a terrorist organization... well, I don't know what to tell you.
  - megous 9y ago
    Turkey is responsible for executing 20,000 Kurdish civilians and destroying several thousands villages in the same conflict. They're still destroying Kurdish cities today, Sur, Sirnak, Nusaybin, Cizre, ... Burning civilians alive by hundreds in one incident. If that doesn't make them a terrorist organization... well, I don't know what to tell you. It's a war.
    - enraged_camel 9y ago
      >>Turkey is responsible for executing 20,000 Kurdish civilians and destroying several thousands villages in the same conflict. They're still destroying Kurdish cities today, Sur, Sirnak, Nusaybin, Cizre, ... Burning civilians alive by hundreds in one incident. [citation needed] Turkey is definitely not blameless in this conflict, but I want to see some reliable sources for the outrageous claims you just made.
      - frandroid 9y ago
        https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-europemediterranean/turkey/243-managing-turkeys-pkk-conflict-case-nusaybin https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-euro... https://www.voanews.com/a/un-accuses-turkey-massive-destruction-killings-torture-kurdish-areas/3760288.html https://www.voanews.com/a/un-accuses-turkey-massive-destruct... http://www.dw.com/en/unprecedented-destruction-of-kurdish-city-of-cizre/a-19265927 http://www.dw.com/en/unprecedented-destruction-of-kurdish-ci... https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/09/destruction-sur-turkey-historic-district-gentrification-kurdish https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/09/destruction-s... On the executions: References 56, 57, 58, 59: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_conflict_(1978%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-executions-56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_confli... There's way more, these are just the top google search results on each of these claims.
alrs 9y ago
The US supported both Iran and Iraq in their war against each other, which makes sense if the end-goal was to weaken both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/26/world/us-secretly-gave-aid-to-iraq-early-in-its-war-against-iran.html?pagewanted=all&mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/26/world/us-secretly-gave-aid...
- pm90 9y ago
  This comment is quite misleading. The US did support Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. The Iran-Contra affair, if you read the article you linked to, was an attempt to free American hostages held by Hezbollah (an Iranian funded group) while also procuring illicit money to pay the Contras. i.e. US sells weapons to Iran, Iran pays US, Hezbollah frees hostages, US pays the money from Iran to Contras. The US never supported Iran the way it supported Iraq; the USG has been pretty anti-Iran every since the Islamic revolution, and specifically the storming of the US embassy in Teheran.
  - alrs 9y ago
    Anti-Iran since 1979? Not yet both parties in 1980, allegedly. http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/world/new-reports-say-1980-reagan-campaign-tried-to-delay-hostage-release.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/world/new-reports-say-1980... https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/the-october-surprise-was-real/ https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/the-october-surprise...
- parthdesai 9y ago
  and for US military industries to profit.

This literally started a couple of months ago under Trump, along with ending CIA's weapons running program. Here Trump truly deserves credit and outshines Nobel Peace laureate Obama. If he removes PKK from the US list of terrorist groups, that would be a 3 for 3 for him, although I'm not holding my breath.

notfromhere 9y ago
US has been supporting the Kurds longer than trump's term in office
- baursak 9y ago
  Not sure what you mean by "Kurds". Why is PKK still a designated terrorist group?
  - megous 9y ago
    Obviously some Kurds in north-east of Syria. I'm not sure there's any support of Kurds on the Turkey side, where Kurdish cities are being razed to the ground last several years. It's not even in the news that much compared to the other stuff from the region. Yet there is million or more of internally displaced people by this violence.
  - frandroid 9y ago
    Because NATO.
- richardknop 9y ago
  The level of support is what's important. Under previous administration the support was on a very low side and much more support was thrown behind sunni states (Turkey for example) and extremist sunni militias. This has changed under Trump and it seems like the support will be shifted away from extremist sunni militias and towards Kurds. I have to give Trump credit for this.
- mentalpiracy 9y ago
  We have been supporting the Kurds, yes - but our support is schizophrenic at best. Though the Kurds are almost everything the US could want in a mideast ally - moderate, self-sustaining and stable, demonstrably capable - we will probably never embrace them fully due to our relationship with Turkey. Some backstory: Turkey lists the PKK as a terrorist organization, as Ankara and PKK have been fighting a separatist conflict for decades. Though the PKK has never targeted Americans, the US still lists the PKK as a terror org to placate Ankara. The US has invested in Turkey as a strategic regional ally since the Cold War. Geographically Turkey was a key bulwark against Soviet power, and indeed we housed nuclear missiles within Turkish territory for many years. Even after the USSR collapsed, Turkey's regional value to the United States has grown. Incirlik is one of the largest air bases in the world, and remains a key logistical point for our military action in Afghanistan and Iraq. Turkey was also important to the US ideologically because they were a stable, moderate, secular Muslim state, e.g. the kind of country we wanted to serve as a template for the rest of the Middle East. Thanks to Erdogan, this value has decreased sharply thanks to his moves to consolidate autocratic power at the expense of the still largely secular and moderate Turkish populace. (Tried to keep the value judgements out of that, sorry if I offended someone by summarizing too generally).
  - mengibar10 9y ago
    PKK is a terrorist organization because they have been killing civilians. Especially indiscriminate killings through bombings market places, public meetings. Most of the time their victims have been Kurdish people. A terrorist is a terrorist only when Americans are targeted?
    - baursak 9y ago
      Do you mind posting links from reputable sources (i.e. not blatant Turkish government propaganda)?
      - mengibar10 9y ago
        http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-blast/kurdish-militants-claim-responsibility-for-istanbul-attack-that-killed-38-idUSKBN14007C http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-blast/kurdish-milit... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/10/bomb-outside-istanbul-football-stadium-causes-multiple-casualties https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/10/bomb-outside-i... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/explosions-reported-turkey-istanbul-161210193908896.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/explosions-reported-tu...
enraged_camel 9y ago
The PKK is responsible for killing over 30,000 Turkish civilians back in the 80s and 90s. That's roughly ten times the number of people that died in 9/11 attacks. If that doesn't make them a terrorist organization... well, I don't know what to tell you.
- megous 9y ago
  Turkey is responsible for executing 20,000 Kurdish civilians and destroying several thousands villages in the same conflict. They're still destroying Kurdish cities today, Sur, Sirnak, Nusaybin, Cizre, ... Burning civilians alive by hundreds in one incident. If that doesn't make them a terrorist organization... well, I don't know what to tell you. It's a war.
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    >>Turkey is responsible for executing 20,000 Kurdish civilians and destroying several thousands villages in the same conflict. They're still destroying Kurdish cities today, Sur, Sirnak, Nusaybin, Cizre, ... Burning civilians alive by hundreds in one incident. [citation needed] Turkey is definitely not blameless in this conflict, but I want to see some reliable sources for the outrageous claims you just made.
    - frandroid 9y ago
      https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-europemediterranean/turkey/243-managing-turkeys-pkk-conflict-case-nusaybin https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-euro... https://www.voanews.com/a/un-accuses-turkey-massive-destruction-killings-torture-kurdish-areas/3760288.html https://www.voanews.com/a/un-accuses-turkey-massive-destruct... http://www.dw.com/en/unprecedented-destruction-of-kurdish-city-of-cizre/a-19265927 http://www.dw.com/en/unprecedented-destruction-of-kurdish-ci... https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/09/destruction-sur-turkey-historic-district-gentrification-kurdish https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/feb/09/destruction-s... On the executions: References 56, 57, 58, 59: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_conflict_(1978%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-executions-56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish%E2%80%93Turkish_confli... There's way more, these are just the top google search results on each of these claims.

alrs 9y ago

The US supported both Iran and Iraq in their war against each other, which makes sense if the end-goal was to weaken both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/26/world/us-secretly-gave-aid-to-iraq-early-in-its-war-against-iran.html?pagewanted=all&mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/26/world/us-secretly-gave-aid...

pm90 9y ago
This comment is quite misleading. The US did support Iraq in the Iran-Iraq war. The Iran-Contra affair, if you read the article you linked to, was an attempt to free American hostages held by Hezbollah (an Iranian funded group) while also procuring illicit money to pay the Contras. i.e. US sells weapons to Iran, Iran pays US, Hezbollah frees hostages, US pays the money from Iran to Contras. The US never supported Iran the way it supported Iraq; the USG has been pretty anti-Iran every since the Islamic revolution, and specifically the storming of the US embassy in Teheran.
- alrs 9y ago
  Anti-Iran since 1979? Not yet both parties in 1980, allegedly. http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/world/new-reports-say-1980-reagan-campaign-tried-to-delay-hostage-release.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/15/world/new-reports-say-1980... https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/the-october-surprise-was-real/ https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/11/the-october-surprise...
parthdesai 9y ago
and for US military industries to profit.