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Setting aside every other part of this discussion: I don't think a state actor can be accurately described as sociopathic. The expectations and interactions am

Setting aside every other part of this discussion: I don't think a state actor can be accurately described as sociopathic. The expectations and interactions among nations are fundamentally different from those among people.

vosper 9y ago
Nations are just groups of people, but I agree with you. I'm not generally in favour of applying terms like sociopathic to large groups.
- ellius 9y ago
  Saying anything is "just a group" of its constituent parts is misleading and incorrect. Behaviors emerge at system levels that are not present among individual "parts."
duncanawoods 9y ago
Can you make an argument for believing that? Using psychological terms in a strictly behavioural fashion for groups/countries seems to me to not just be an analogy but capturing the essence of what is observable. Many of the concepts are similar e.g. identity, cooperation, aggression, lying, betrayal, self-preservation, fear etc. You can defend this further and claim that even when examining an individual, you will see conflicting identities and traits that resembles the conflict in a group rather than a constant, simple, single identity. The underlying truth appears to not be not that a group does not have psychological behaviours its that a single simple human identity doesn't really exist and is always an emergent property of some collection of heterogeneous smaller parts identities/modes/processes etc.
stemc43 9y ago
If you really look at human interactions they are exactly same as nation - level ones: constant fight for individual success with thinly cover of "moral values".
CapitalistCartr 9y ago
Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do? USSR under Joe did; that's hardly a ringing endorsement. Any Scandinavian country would be a good counter argument. Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe.
- keldaris 9y ago
  > Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do? That's simple: they're weak and can't get away with it. The baseline conduct of nation states is basically that of fairly rational psychopaths, capable of evaluating what they can get away with. Deviations from that norm are mostly reminiscent of irrational psychopaths. Anyone who expects "moral", "just" or "trustworthy" behavior from a nation state is just out of their mind.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe. Some would say “submitted to” rather than “withstood”; heck, accommodating a powerful neighbor out of fear and inability to effectively resist is called “Finlandization” for a reason.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  Most states lack the means to throw their weight around like the USA does. Interstate relations are what anarchy looks like.
- alrs 9y ago
  Finland's foreign policy was benign, but its domestic policies weren't pretty. Eugenics: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree/530b988476f0db569b00000b http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree/530b988476f0db569b00... Kekkonen and the collapse of democracy: http://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/18/archives/finns-extend-presidents-term-without-election-soviet-trust-cited.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/18/archives/finns-extend-pres...
- anigbrowl 9y ago

vosper 9y ago

Nations are just groups of people, but I agree with you. I'm not generally in favour of applying terms like sociopathic to large groups.

ellius 9y ago
Saying anything is "just a group" of its constituent parts is misleading and incorrect. Behaviors emerge at system levels that are not present among individual "parts."

duncanawoods 9y ago

Can you make an argument for believing that? Using psychological terms in a strictly behavioural fashion for groups/countries seems to me to not just be an analogy but capturing the essence of what is observable. Many of the concepts are similar e.g. identity, cooperation, aggression, lying, betrayal, self-preservation, fear etc. You can defend this further and claim that even when examining an individual, you will see conflicting identities and traits that resembles the conflict in a group rather than a constant, simple, single identity. The underlying truth appears to not be not that a group does not have psychological behaviours its that a single simple human identity doesn't really exist and is always an emergent property of some collection of heterogeneous smaller parts identities/modes/processes etc.

stemc43 9y ago

If you really look at human interactions they are exactly same as nation - level ones: constant fight for individual success with thinly cover of "moral values".

CapitalistCartr 9y ago

Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do? USSR under Joe did; that's hardly a ringing endorsement. Any Scandinavian country would be a good counter argument. Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe.

keldaris 9y ago
> Then why is it so many other countries don't act as we do? That's simple: they're weak and can't get away with it. The baseline conduct of nation states is basically that of fairly rational psychopaths, capable of evaluating what they can get away with. Deviations from that norm are mostly reminiscent of irrational psychopaths. Anyone who expects "moral", "just" or "trustworthy" behavior from a nation state is just out of their mind.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Finland has withstood Soviet/Russian intimidation for more than seven decades without running around instigating insane, right-wing police states across the Globe. Some would say “submitted to” rather than “withstood”; heck, accommodating a powerful neighbor out of fear and inability to effectively resist is called “Finlandization” for a reason.
rebuilder 9y ago
Most states lack the means to throw their weight around like the USA does. Interstate relations are what anarchy looks like.
alrs 9y ago
Finland's foreign policy was benign, but its domestic policies weren't pretty. Eugenics: http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree/530b988476f0db569b00000b http://eugenicsarchive.ca/discover/tree/530b988476f0db569b00... Kekkonen and the collapse of democracy: http://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/18/archives/finns-extend-presidents-term-without-election-soviet-trust-cited.html?mcubz=3 http://www.nytimes.com/1973/01/18/archives/finns-extend-pres...
anigbrowl 9y ago