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At this point, they are trying to support a secular and a relatively liberal (relative to an alternative) regime against ISIS and other jihadis, yes. To see an

At this point, they are trying to support a secular and a relatively liberal (relative to an alternative) regime against ISIS and other jihadis, yes. To see an alternative, take a look at Libya after Gaddafi where there are literally slave markets in 2017.

Cyph0n 9y ago
"At this point" being the key phrase here. That wasn't their goal when they came in to back Syria: the goal was to clamp down on the uprising and its armed resistance. Of course, things are more complicated now. Oh definitely, Assad is liberal and secular, to the point where he operates countless secret torture prisons and has forcibly disappeared tens of thousands of his citizens. Use the term "lesser of evils" if you must. But relatively liberal? Absolutely not.
- toyg 9y ago
  "Relatively" implies "to something ", in this case (I would assume) either to middle-age-style religious warlords (Daesh et al) or absolutist monarchies built around religious rule (Iran, Saudi). So yeah, I'd say Assad is "relatively liberal" by Middle-Eastern standards - a place where almost every state has some secret police, an absolutist ruler, and no separation of church and state.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    I'm from (arguably) the only Arab Spring success story, so I'm quite familiar with how Middle Eastern dictatorships operate. We have a truth commission that has gone through how people have suffered at the hands of the deposed regime. Even when compared to similar Middle Eastern autocrats, Assad is simply on a whole other level in my opinion. One might argue it's because of the war, but I really don't see why war crimes and torture prisons are required to "win" the civil war. On the contrary, his people will never forget. Good luck building a stable and successful country with so much blood on your hands.
- X86BSD 9y ago
  Citations on these secret prisons and dissapearing of people by the tens of thousands please?
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/mass-deaths-and-torture-syrias-detention-facilities https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/ma... There are a few other good sources. I'll try to find them.
  - ionised 9y ago
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/08/syria-torture-prisons/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/08/syria-to... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/21/syrias-disappeared-the-case-against-assad-channel-4 https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/21/syrias-... https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/30/tortured-abused-hidden-horror-disappeared-women-syria-prisons-international-day-of-the-disappeared https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/30/t... http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-03-23/it-was-my-duty-to-get-the-names-out-the-brutal-stories-of-assads-victims-told-in-c4s-syrias-disappeared/ http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-03-23/it-was-my-duty-to-...
travmatt 9y ago
>relatively liberal (relative to an alternative) We're talking about the al-Assad ruling family? The same family whose literal policy is to raze towns that shelter any opposition, and are currently literally gassing their own citizens?
djsumdog 9y ago
Fun fact, Gaddafi didn't run the country. No media outlets reported on the democratically elected head of state in Libya. They also didn't report on the free electricity, subsidized housing, subsidized fuel, free education and the fact that Libya was stable and in no debt to the WMF. Now they are in debt to the WMF, are a totally non-stable state ravaged with crime and their slowly progressively moving government has reverted decades in terms of democracy and human rights. It's a mini-Iraq with less than 1/8 of the news coverage.
- wil421 9y ago
  Free is only free until your money runs out. Look at Venezuela, the government gave the things you listed as free until they couldn't.
  - pm90 9y ago
    You could say that about almost any Petro State, including Saudi Arabia. Libya's tremendous energy reserves plus small urban population made it that much more easy to offer freebies to all the citizens who asked for it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- chinhodado 9y ago
  What do you mean by "didn't run the country"? Do you mean "ruin" instead?
notfromhere 9y ago
Keeping a minority Alawite government in power is just going to keep leading to these Sunni uprisings.
- dagenleg 9y ago
  At least Alawite goverment looks out for other minorities. Sunny majority government is going to be devastating for everyone who is not Sunni.
- baursak 9y ago
  Majority of Syrian Sunnis support the government. Majority of Syrian army is Sunni.
- zacurry 9y ago
  These uprisings "keep" happening because the Saudis and the usa provide funds to these rebel groups to oust the Shiite (alawite) regime. In Bahrain, a Sunni minority government is ruling the state.

Cyph0n 9y ago

"At this point" being the key phrase here. That wasn't their goal when they came in to back Syria: the goal was to clamp down on the uprising and its armed resistance. Of course, things are more complicated now. Oh definitely, Assad is liberal and secular, to the point where he operates countless secret torture prisons and has forcibly disappeared tens of thousands of his citizens. Use the term "lesser of evils" if you must. But relatively liberal? Absolutely not.

toyg 9y ago
"Relatively" implies "to something ", in this case (I would assume) either to middle-age-style religious warlords (Daesh et al) or absolutist monarchies built around religious rule (Iran, Saudi). So yeah, I'd say Assad is "relatively liberal" by Middle-Eastern standards - a place where almost every state has some secret police, an absolutist ruler, and no separation of church and state.
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  I'm from (arguably) the only Arab Spring success story, so I'm quite familiar with how Middle Eastern dictatorships operate. We have a truth commission that has gone through how people have suffered at the hands of the deposed regime. Even when compared to similar Middle Eastern autocrats, Assad is simply on a whole other level in my opinion. One might argue it's because of the war, but I really don't see why war crimes and torture prisons are required to "win" the civil war. On the contrary, his people will never forget. Good luck building a stable and successful country with so much blood on your hands.
X86BSD 9y ago
Citations on these secret prisons and dissapearing of people by the tens of thousands please?
- Cyph0n 9y ago
  https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/mass-deaths-and-torture-syrias-detention-facilities https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/12/16/if-dead-could-speak/ma... There are a few other good sources. I'll try to find them.
- ionised 9y ago
  https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/08/syria-torture-prisons/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2016/08/syria-to... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/21/syrias-disappeared-the-case-against-assad-channel-4 https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/mar/21/syrias-... https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/30/tortured-abused-hidden-horror-disappeared-women-syria-prisons-international-day-of-the-disappeared https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/30/t... http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-03-23/it-was-my-duty-to-get-the-names-out-the-brutal-stories-of-assads-victims-told-in-c4s-syrias-disappeared/ http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-03-23/it-was-my-duty-to-...

travmatt 9y ago

>relatively liberal (relative to an alternative) We're talking about the al-Assad ruling family? The same family whose literal policy is to raze towns that shelter any opposition, and are currently literally gassing their own citizens?

djsumdog 9y ago

Fun fact, Gaddafi didn't run the country. No media outlets reported on the democratically elected head of state in Libya. They also didn't report on the free electricity, subsidized housing, subsidized fuel, free education and the fact that Libya was stable and in no debt to the WMF. Now they are in debt to the WMF, are a totally non-stable state ravaged with crime and their slowly progressively moving government has reverted decades in terms of democracy and human rights. It's a mini-Iraq with less than 1/8 of the news coverage.

wil421 9y ago
Free is only free until your money runs out. Look at Venezuela, the government gave the things you listed as free until they couldn't.
- pm90 9y ago
  You could say that about almost any Petro State, including Saudi Arabia. Libya's tremendous energy reserves plus small urban population made it that much more easy to offer freebies to all the citizens who asked for it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
chinhodado 9y ago
What do you mean by "didn't run the country"? Do you mean "ruin" instead?

notfromhere 9y ago

Keeping a minority Alawite government in power is just going to keep leading to these Sunni uprisings.

dagenleg 9y ago
At least Alawite goverment looks out for other minorities. Sunny majority government is going to be devastating for everyone who is not Sunni.
baursak 9y ago
Majority of Syrian Sunnis support the government. Majority of Syrian army is Sunni.
zacurry 9y ago
These uprisings "keep" happening because the Saudis and the usa provide funds to these rebel groups to oust the Shiite (alawite) regime. In Bahrain, a Sunni minority government is ruling the state.