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Polari: the dead language of gay British men
- Angostura 9y agoAnd if you would like to hear Kenneth Williams and Hugh Paddick do their stuff, here you go: https://youtu.be/OZL4rTEWU5c https://youtu.be/OZL4rTEWU5c
- DanBC 9y agothat was broadcast in 1965-1968. Male same sex activity started to be decriminalised in the UK in 1967, but there were still many restrictions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Kingdom#Same-sex_sexual_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_King...
- hluska 9y agoArticles like this remind me of how far we have come in a relatively short time. From a world where gay people had to invent a secret language to afford them some sense of security in a harsh world, to a world where gay people have significantly more rights is a wonderful development. Good job to everyone who fought to make this change a reality...
- unescape 9y agoSignificantly more rights than who? Christians?
- ubernostrum 9y ago"A world", for some restricted local definitions of "world". Even in countries which ostensibly recognize the equality of same-sex couples and the rights of those couples, violence, variable access to justice and a variety of other issues still remain.
- ivanhoe 9y agoThis was an extreme, but all subcultures have their own hermetic languages. Local slangs and expressions that get popularized inside of a group, almost meaningless to any outsider.
- toyg 9y agoYe fam! That soz was proper peak, blud.
- booleandilemma 9y agoI find myself using != in skype chats with coworkers.
- jrimbault 9y agoSome other subcultures would use <>
- albertgoeswoof 9y agoIndeed, and imagine how quickly we could regress under the wrong regime (see Iran, Iraq and Somalia for examples), a generation or two is all it could take.
- duncan_bayne 9y agoA _world_ is probably a stretch. Note elsewhere on thread it's mentioned that Turkey has a similar language, and it's still very active.
- dogruck 9y agoOr maybe it shows how little progress we've made. In other words, we're deluding ourselves with an illusion of progress. What does it mean when Obama flipped his view (evolved) in 2012? And, every serious 2008 POTUS candidate was against gay marriage. So today we have broad support for gay marriage. Great -- certainly good news for my mainstream gay friends and cowoerkers (and by extension, for me). But is that real progress? Or have we simply said something like, "your lifestyle is fine, as long as it looks a lot like our established mainstream lifestyle." We pat ourselves on the back for accepting gays. How many coworkers do you have with facial tattoos? How many cross dressing coworkers? How many coworkers who are proud and open about being swingers, or nudists?
- kbart 9y ago"to a world where gay people have significantly more rights is a wonderful development" You are being too optimistic. Gays have more rights in some (mostly western) countries, it's not even close to the whole world. Meanwhile in Chechnya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Chechnya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Che... and I'm not even talking about some Islamic countries where gay people are being killed on the spot.
- DanBC 9y agoRecently a man in UK was jailed because he repeatedly raped his daughter. She had told him she was lesbian, and he reportedly wanted to rape it out of her. People in UK still face higher rates of violent crime; there's still discrimination at work; there's only very recently been legal parity; there are increased rates of death by suicide. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corrective-rape-women-refugees-asylum-seekers-yarls-wood-detention-lesbian-bisexual-a7622251.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corrective-rape-women-re... > This week a father was jailed for 21 years for sexual offences including the long-term sexual abuse of his two daughters. The abuse of his younger daughter began when she confided in him that she might be a lesbian. It is reported that the father decided to rape his daughter to “prove” that sex with men was “better”. > For those of us who work with asylum-seeking women, this story of the rape of a lesbian or bisexual woman is all too familiar. “Corrective rape”, as it is chillingly known, is a common experience for women in countries where homosexuality is illegal or culturally disapproved of. > No wonder such women seek asylum in the UK, a country which in some ways flies the gay flag with pride, allowing same-sex marriage and protecting LGBT people with laws prohibiting discrimination. However, rather than being protected and given sanctuary when they arrive in the UK, so many of these women end up locked up indefinitely in Yarl’s Wood Immigration Removal Centre in Bedfordshire
- sortaThrowaway 9y agoYou can point few examples for any horrid behavior. Saying things are not clearly much better is silly. The PM of Ireland is openly gay.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y agoHere's a short film in Polari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8yEH8TZUsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8yEH8TZUsk
- khedoros1 9y agoWhich is also embedded in the article.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y agoSo it was, sorry. I don't know how I missed it.
- kagamine 9y agoBecause we are so used to seeing articles broken up by ads and other intrusive media that we go from the last word of one paragraph to the first of the next and skip the interruption?
- rabble 9y agoI'm pretty sure the contemporary word we use for "female impersonators" is trans.
- foota 9y agoI think that refers to drag queens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen#Female_impersonator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_queen#Female_impersonator
- moonbug22 9y agoNo, dude. It's not.
- xutopia 9y agoWith sensitive subjects like these it's worth checking your sources before you speak.
- Bjartr 9y agoThere's a further distinction between male-sexed individuals who enjoy crossdressing and those who identify as female and dress accordingly. Only the latter group is trans (and is so independent of what they wear) Apologies to any nuance of language I've missed here, as I'm sure this could be nitpicked to death.
- PhasmaFelis 9y agoDrag is certainly a popular outlet for trans people who can't be out in their public lives, but not all drag queens (or kings) are trans, or even gay.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- oliyoung 9y agoNo. While both acknowledge that gender is fluid personal interpretation of identity, to drag (female impersonation, but there are women who drag as men), gender identity is a joke to be made fun of and celebrate, but being transgender takes gender identity seriously. They can be expressed by the same people (see Peppermint who won 2015's RuPaul Drag Race, she is a transgendered woman who competes in drag competitions), but they can just as often be in conflict. Mostly. In not all cases and for not all people, and I'm probably wrong.
- gamad 9y agoA lot of this wouldn't be acceptable today because the culture of gay men using female names and pronouns to refer to each other has become "politically incorrect" as has the gay (non-transgendered and non transvestite) drag culture. As a 55+ gay man, I miss this.
- grzm 9y agoCants are fascinating. I hadn't realized until reading this article the connection to Morrissey's "Piccadilly Palare" (which indeed is the intent), which makes so much more sense now upon reflection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piccadilly_Palare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piccadilly_Palare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_(language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cant_(language)
- stonewhite 9y agoHere in Turkey, we have "lubunca" which is more or less the same with this language, except it is still living. Entire Turkish grammar applies but there is lots and lots of new words to keep the talk obscure.
- WD-42 9y agoThe official IRC client for the GNOME desktop (popular desktop environment for Linux) is named Polari. https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Polari
- cozzyd 9y agoYeah that's what I was thinking about too... I wonder if it was intentional. They do want you to pronounce the G in front.. .
- petercooper 9y agoSome Polari words live on in modern British English, such as bijou, camp, cottaging, khazi, naff, and scarper.
- agumonkey 9y agoWhen George Michael passed away, I dug his whole life, and learned cottaging on the way.
- mprev 9y agoAs used by the characters Julian and Sandy in the postwar BBC radio comedy Round the Horne.
- grkvlt 9y agoI believe at the time in the UK not just homosexuality (cf. Alan Turing) but also depictions of it were illegal, so this was a way to have gay characters without the BBC directors or censors realising.
- pvg 9y agoalso depictions of it were illegal I don't think 'having a gay character' was illegal or that there was any doubt in the minds of directors, censors or audience the characters were gay.
- jdietrich 9y agoDepicting gay characters wasn't illegal, but it would have caused an almighty shitstorm in the tabloid press. In the 60s and 70s, British comedy and light entertainment was rife with "confirmed bachelors" with a flamboyant manner - John Inman, Kenneth Williams, Frankie Howerd, Larry Grayson etc. A metropolitan audience would see them as obviously gay, but there was a level of plausible deniability, aided by straight camp and drag performers like Dick Emery and Stanley Baxter.
- dingaling 9y agoI only heard the Horne series for the first time in the early 2000s, when the BBC started tapping its archives for the new digital channels. What stood out about those programmes were: 1. How well they've aged, with very few lost contemporaraneous references ( mostly in Horne's introductory monologue ) 2. How much literature I had read in my youth that was directly influed by Horne's ensemble, without me being aware 3. How progressive it was, moreso than the likes of the Goon Show which seem to be higher-profile It used to be a staple of BBC Radio 7 but seems to be much rarer on its successor, Radio 4 Extra: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00c7q4l http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00c7q4l
- klodolph 9y agoHere's that short film in Polari with line-by-line translations and a discussion of the etymology of the slang used. Scroll down to see the script, some of the dialog is clickable with annotations. https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/10/watch-short-film-explores-lost-gay-slang-brits-used-avoid-arrest/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/10/watch-short-film-explore...
- agumonkey 9y agopowered by rapgenius... genius
- petegrif 9y agoKenneth Williams used it when a popular comic and nobody straight had the first idea of the gay subtext.
- kagamine 9y agoOf course they knew, Britain has a long history of camp in the theater. They maybe didn't know the words' meaning but they knew the gay subtext and overtones.
- Ballantara 9y agoTheir Polari bible translation has "unto the homie" == "to the man", so Polari for "man" is "homie"! I think the modern slang homie comes from "homeboy", so that'd be convergent etymology?
- grzm 9y agoInteresting. I'd (naïvely) guess Polari homie would come from the French homme, so it would be convergent (as opposed to some shared etymological root).
- jdminhbg 9y agoLooks like it's actually from Italian uomo (plural uomi), and most places seem to spell it "omie" without the "h."
- grzm 9y agoCheers. Both share the same Latin root, homo (man), correct?
- interfixus 9y agoCorrect. However, the 'homo' in homosexual derives from Greek homo, meaning 'same' or something to that effect.
- grzm 9y agoRight. For example, homogenous. Or homonym. Not related to homme or uomo. No connection to homosexual was implied.
- sguav 9y agoNote: in italian it's uomo, pl uomini; in latin homo, hominis
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- 0xBABAD00C 9y agoRussian "Fenya" is a living example of something similar (applicable to the criminal/thief subculture), with bits and pieces of it having migrated into everyday speech, like the word "garbage" for cops. There's a Polish, Romani and Yiddish layer in it too, which should make it an amazing subject for linguistic research, but I'm not sure if anyone is seriously studying it...
- mc32 9y agoDidn't fenya start in the black sea area and then migrate to the gulags as these elements were sent into the different kinds of gulags?
- 0xBABAD00C 9y agoI think the amount of Yiddish borrowings points to a certain region on the Black Sea coast (we all know where it points, as they would say in the city where it points). But the roots of it go much deeper into the middle ages, and there is an older layer that is less recognizable to the uninitiated. The gulag definitely helped it spread, as did the chanson style singers in the 90s.
- cstross 9y agoThis is regional slang rather than dialect, but in the UK — specifically England, mostly northern England — "the filth" means "the police" (collective noun — you wouldn't refer to an individual cop as a filth). I'm now wondering if this is parallel evolution to "Fenya" or some sort of cross-fertilization.
- 0xBABAD00C 9y agoConvergent evolution due to similar environmental pressures, I presume :) Garbage is a collective noun in Russian and can't have a plural, but in thief jargon it's used as a singular noun for one cop (the garbage is on my tail), and, hilariously enough, in a plural for multiple cops ("garbages were whistling all night in the park", it's from a song).
- kazinator 9y agoThe Queen lyric "Scaramouche, Scaramouche, can you do the fandango?" seems like some coded message in polari.
- greglindahl 9y agoExcept "Scaramouche" and "fandango" are both in the dictionary.
- kazinator 9y agoPolari has some common English words. According to a table in the Wikipedia, for instance cottage, a standard English dictionary word, denotes a "public lavatory used for sexual encounters" and handbag stands for "money".
- greglindahl 9y agoDo you really think that Queen is not using Scaramouche to mean the Commedia del Arte clown and fandango to mean the dance? If I see a sentence with cottage and handbag used like that, I don't think I'd be confused.
- api_or_ipa 9y ago> Another group of activists called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence created a Polari Bible, running a Polari wordlist through a computer program on an English version of the Bible. > “And the rib, which the Duchess Gloria had lelled from homie, made she a palone, and brought her unto the homie.” Translation: “And the rib which God had taken from man was made into a woman and brought to the man.” I'm interested how a language is judged to be distinctly different such that it can be called a separate language and not a dialect or variant. If the language heavily borrows sentence structure and filler words from English, is it a separate language or merely a variant or dialect?
- willvarfar 9y ago> It developed from an earlier form of language called Parlyaree which had roots in Italian and rudimentary forms of language used for communication by sailors around the Mediterranean. > Polari itself had Parlyaree as a base, but once in Britain was supplemented with a wealth of slang terminology from different sources, including Cockney Rhyming Slang, backslang (pronouncing a word as if it was spelt backwards), French, Yiddish and American airforce slang. So perhaps its a dialect of Italian which borrows heavily from English? Or?
- apendleton 9y agoTo the extent that there's a rule to go by, it's that in general dialects are mutually intelligible and languages are not, and video of this speech is not comprehensible at all to me (a native English speaker), so that arguably pushes it into "language." But of course there really isn't a rule, though. In practice what gets called a language vs. a dialect is mostly political. Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian are at least somewhat mutually intelligible, and Moldovan and Romanian are essentially the same language but for a border in between, as are Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian, and Montenegrin. By contrast, Mandarin and Cantonese aren't mutually intelligible at all but are supposedly both "Chinese dialects," and ditto for the various colloquial flavors of Arabic. The saying among linguists is "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy."
- azernik 9y agoA shprakhe iz a dialekt mit en armey un a flot. It's a political distinction, and linguists generally try not to make that distinction, using words like "tongue" (for the language/dialect) or "speech community" (for the people who speak it). cf. the way that Serbian/Croatian, or Danish/Swedish, are considered different languages, while the much more distinct Arabic and Chinese spoken tongues are considered dialects. (Note - Tunisian is considered a separate "language" in Tunisia, purely because of the way Tunisians view it. It's not actually any more distinct from other Arabics than, say, Iraqi or Moroccan.) Or the way that Dutch is considered a separate language, while the very similar tongues that exist in Germany on a continuum between Standard German and Dutch are considered German (or Frisian, or Dutch) dialects.
- yipopov 9y agoShows the Church of England has ceased to be a church in any meaningful way.
- rothbardrand 9y agoThe church's objections to homosexuality are an opinion that they have the right to have-- the state's criminalization of it, however, is the violation of rights which is a crime. Homophobia is just stupid, government action is the real crime.