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Too bad it ain't like that the other way around: “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more

Too bad it ain't like that the other way around: “Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” - Martin Luther

mannykannot 9y ago
Luther was probably thinking more of philosophers, whose pesky questions challenged his theology's internal logical consistency, or at least its certainty. How religion deals with such matters is its own business, though it seems to me that for the most part, religion pays little heed to analytical theology.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > religion pays little heed to analytical theology What do you mean by this? There's a very strong, very cerebral theological subculture in Christianity. I think they'd raise their eyebrows to be told they aren't analytical enough. And their works aren't widely read, but they produce memes that filter through popular Christian sermons and books as time goes on. Or do you mean something specific by "analytical theology"?
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    I meant that, when compared to the numbers of practitioners, those who actively spend much time thinking analytically about theological issues form a very small minority. It does seem that some/many/most religions go through one or more periods when the outcome of such thinking filters through to everyday observances, and that the reformation, like the Council of Nicea, was one such time. In Christianity specifically (and perhaps many other religions) there is also the tenet that faith trumps reason, which is what I think Luther was going on about in this quote.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      > I meant that, when compared to the numbers of practitioners, those who actively spend much time thinking analytically about theological issues form a very small minority. Somewhat, but how many people watch Transformers versus read the latest cryptocurrency paper? And there are many styles of preachers that teach and talk much like an enthusiastic college lecturer. They are very erudite and draw large audiences once a week. To talk about philosophy, ethics, morality, and critical analysis, basically. And it's really common for congregations to break out into smaller groups throughout the week to have similar self-lead conversations. > ...there is also the tenet that faith trumps reason... That may be a cultural disposition among some, but it's not a tenet. In fact, Christ himself used reason, for example, when saying, "...[a] house divided against itself will not stand." He was using deductive logic in that case to refute that he was exorcising demons as an agent of the devil.
      - mannykannot 9y ago
        Luther, whose quote on the matter is the subject of this thread, seems to differ. I imagine he could find a counter-quote somewhere in the scripture.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Luther, whose quote on the matter is the subject of this thread, seems to differ. Luther's quote (as is the case of many popular quotes of the founder of Protestantism) was a direct reaction against a view opposing the quote held by the Catholic Church at the time (and, in this case, still today), not expressing a general and unifying belief of all or most religious (or even Christian) people. So, yes, he would differ, but many religious people and institutions would differ with him on that point. The upthread quote shows Luther's attitude toward reason, but it's offering as illustrating the attitude of religion to reason fails.
        mannykannot 9y ago
        I don't get the point of your comment, not even in the context of where I originally made this suggestion. That Luther was not speaking for all christians might be a valid alternative response to the post I was replying to, but that seems orthogonal to the issue of what Luther was railing against. Does it help to replace 'philosophers' with 'philosophically-minded theologians'?
beojan 9y ago
Luther is pretty much defined by his opposition to the Catholic church. One of his complaints is that the Catholic church applies reason to scripture (in the form of a millienium and a half of philosophical and theological debate within the church, at Luther's time) instead of just taking it literally, as it was written. You can't quote him and generalize to all religion from that.
- freeflight 9y ago
  > You can't quote him and generalize to all religion from that. I'd argue you can generalize pretty much most organized religions from that, but not everything spiritual or peoples actual believes. Imho religion is merely a institutionalized form of spirituality, enforced on a whole community trough dogma. But dogma is never a good thing especially not for the seeking traveler because by it's very nature it's unreasonable and incapable of change. The human mind most certainly needs a place to channel it's fascinations for the unknown and unanswerable, I'm just not sure that institutionalized religion is really a healthy way to "fulfill" that need.
  - beojan 9y ago
    He was criticizing Catholicism for relying on reason. You certainly can't then generalize and say Catholicism is anti-reason, so you can't say religion is anti-reason. What you call dogma is largely a body of knowledge that has been passed down the same way scientific knowledge has been passed down. Ignoring it isn't very different to ignoring the body of published scientific literature and insisting on rediscovering everything for yourself.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > I'd argue you can generalize pretty much most organized religions from that How can you generalize about organized religion from a quote whose thesis was specifically a disagreement with the largest organized religion in the world?
    - freeflight 9y ago
dragonwriter 9y ago
Well, sure, Luther says that, but Luther doesn't speak for all religion, or even all Christianity. There's a reason the movement he started is called “Protestantism”. Contrast that quote from Luther and the attitude it expresses toward reason with, e.g., the Catechism of the Catholic Church (para. 159; footnotes excluded): --- Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1...

mannykannot 9y ago

Luther was probably thinking more of philosophers, whose pesky questions challenged his theology's internal logical consistency, or at least its certainty. How religion deals with such matters is its own business, though it seems to me that for the most part, religion pays little heed to analytical theology.

humanrebar 9y ago
> religion pays little heed to analytical theology What do you mean by this? There's a very strong, very cerebral theological subculture in Christianity. I think they'd raise their eyebrows to be told they aren't analytical enough. And their works aren't widely read, but they produce memes that filter through popular Christian sermons and books as time goes on. Or do you mean something specific by "analytical theology"?
- mannykannot 9y ago
  I meant that, when compared to the numbers of practitioners, those who actively spend much time thinking analytically about theological issues form a very small minority. It does seem that some/many/most religions go through one or more periods when the outcome of such thinking filters through to everyday observances, and that the reformation, like the Council of Nicea, was one such time. In Christianity specifically (and perhaps many other religions) there is also the tenet that faith trumps reason, which is what I think Luther was going on about in this quote.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    > I meant that, when compared to the numbers of practitioners, those who actively spend much time thinking analytically about theological issues form a very small minority. Somewhat, but how many people watch Transformers versus read the latest cryptocurrency paper? And there are many styles of preachers that teach and talk much like an enthusiastic college lecturer. They are very erudite and draw large audiences once a week. To talk about philosophy, ethics, morality, and critical analysis, basically. And it's really common for congregations to break out into smaller groups throughout the week to have similar self-lead conversations. > ...there is also the tenet that faith trumps reason... That may be a cultural disposition among some, but it's not a tenet. In fact, Christ himself used reason, for example, when saying, "...[a] house divided against itself will not stand." He was using deductive logic in that case to refute that he was exorcising demons as an agent of the devil.
    - mannykannot 9y ago
      Luther, whose quote on the matter is the subject of this thread, seems to differ. I imagine he could find a counter-quote somewhere in the scripture.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > Luther, whose quote on the matter is the subject of this thread, seems to differ. Luther's quote (as is the case of many popular quotes of the founder of Protestantism) was a direct reaction against a view opposing the quote held by the Catholic Church at the time (and, in this case, still today), not expressing a general and unifying belief of all or most religious (or even Christian) people. So, yes, he would differ, but many religious people and institutions would differ with him on that point. The upthread quote shows Luther's attitude toward reason, but it's offering as illustrating the attitude of religion to reason fails.
        mannykannot 9y ago
        I don't get the point of your comment, not even in the context of where I originally made this suggestion. That Luther was not speaking for all christians might be a valid alternative response to the post I was replying to, but that seems orthogonal to the issue of what Luther was railing against. Does it help to replace 'philosophers' with 'philosophically-minded theologians'?

beojan 9y ago

Luther is pretty much defined by his opposition to the Catholic church. One of his complaints is that the Catholic church applies reason to scripture (in the form of a millienium and a half of philosophical and theological debate within the church, at Luther's time) instead of just taking it literally, as it was written. You can't quote him and generalize to all religion from that.

freeflight 9y ago
> You can't quote him and generalize to all religion from that. I'd argue you can generalize pretty much most organized religions from that, but not everything spiritual or peoples actual believes. Imho religion is merely a institutionalized form of spirituality, enforced on a whole community trough dogma. But dogma is never a good thing especially not for the seeking traveler because by it's very nature it's unreasonable and incapable of change. The human mind most certainly needs a place to channel it's fascinations for the unknown and unanswerable, I'm just not sure that institutionalized religion is really a healthy way to "fulfill" that need.
- beojan 9y ago
  He was criticizing Catholicism for relying on reason. You certainly can't then generalize and say Catholicism is anti-reason, so you can't say religion is anti-reason. What you call dogma is largely a body of knowledge that has been passed down the same way scientific knowledge has been passed down. Ignoring it isn't very different to ignoring the body of published scientific literature and insisting on rediscovering everything for yourself.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > I'd argue you can generalize pretty much most organized religions from that How can you generalize about organized religion from a quote whose thesis was specifically a disagreement with the largest organized religion in the world?
  - freeflight 9y ago

dragonwriter 9y ago

Well, sure, Luther says that, but Luther doesn't speak for all religion, or even all Christianity. There's a reason the movement he started is called “Protestantism”. Contrast that quote from Luther and the attitude it expresses toward reason with, e.g., the Catechism of the Catholic Church (para. 159; footnotes excluded): --- Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1...