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They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years no

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or who can't or don't want to invest into JavaScript or another web stack, but I think a responsible consultant should tell these customers that their stack is on life support now.

cjsuk 9y ago
A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch office and there's a headache from hell on your plate. Fortunately they're all starting to kick out chrome for business now.
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  Maybe for those customers it might make sense to donate to the Eclipse foundation to keep JSF etc. alive and to keep Java-only devs afloat? But then maintenance of J2EE has ceased because it's not economically feasible.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    It probably would but it won't happen. It's difficult getting anything like that through the layers of purchasing hell. If they provided a web site with pictures of boxes of software for min $2000 that never arrived and didn't do anything it might work better. The moment someone says "donate" the bean counters start sharpening their pitchforks.
    - eecc 9y ago
      How about labelling that button "support" or "maintenance contract"?
      - cjsuk 9y ago
        That just gets the legal guys on the case.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  We have customers were using Chrome is a security risk, because they cannot control its deployments like on FF, IE and Edge.
  - cjsuk 9y ago
    Fortunately that excuse is no longer valid as they have GPO templates, MSI packages, the lot: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7358568 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7358568
    - pjmlp 9y ago
      Thanks for the heads up, unfortunately it won't change the IT internal guidelines.
      - cjsuk 9y ago
        This is when I tend to find a new company to work for :)
        pjmlp 9y ago
        Except that these cases are not my employer rather some customers. In any case, I am pretty much against the mentality here that it is to switch jobs just because something isn't nice and shinny at the current employer, or customer. Not every place on Earth is like SV avid for software developers.
- Delmania 9y ago
  Most of those companies use AngularJS for that specific reason. It's stable, well tested and documents, and it works.
pjmlp 9y ago
What part of greenfield projects haven't you understood?! Fads come and go, Java stays strong. Many enterprise favor having mature technologies they can count on. A responsible consultant should never advise customers adopting the cool JavaScript framework of the Month (TM), unless it is for building curriculum and write cool "We migrated to tech XXXX" blog posts.
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  No reason to be rude. You do realize TFA is about putting J2EE to rest, don't you? I'm well aware of Java's qualities on the backend, but ignoring browser innovation for 10 years (iPhone and the push for responsive) or even 15 years (Ajax) isn't good advice IMHO. For better or worse, the same developer attitude and deployment constraints that made Java developers never look beyond the Java ecosystem is happening with Node.js developers, now that Java doesn't give you a full stack anymore (ignoring gwt and echo, which have been deprecated for 5+ years now as well).
  - sk5t 9y ago
    No more full stack in Java? How about Play, Vaadin, Spring...
    - tannhaeuser 9y ago
      Don't get me wrong, I heard good things about Play, but isn't it Scala? Vaadin I know only from a customer of mine who are using it for server-rendered charting apps and I guess it works well in that capacity. And Spring MVC in 2017? Come on. My point being that these frameworks are chosen because the options are limited to what's available on the JVM, trading last-gen Java know-how against younger (and sexier) know-how. It's also a miracle to me why JavaScript isn't more popular with Java developers, of all people, when in fact Java has two mature JavaScript engines, and JavaScript certainly is interesting from a bridge/migration perspective. Years ago Oracle and RedHat had even partial Node.js ports, but it never went very far.
      - 9y ago
znpy 9y ago
A lot of enterprises like to have a solid runtime with proper multi-threading, a comprehensive library set and a stable, well-defined API. Ask yourself why of all the languages and runtime, it's mostly Java running the enterprise world.
- tannhaeuser 9y ago
  But I haven't questioned Java as a backend technology.

cjsuk 9y ago

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch office and there's a headache from hell on your plate. Fortunately they're all starting to kick out chrome for business now.

tannhaeuser 9y ago
Maybe for those customers it might make sense to donate to the Eclipse foundation to keep JSF etc. alive and to keep Java-only devs afloat? But then maintenance of J2EE has ceased because it's not economically feasible.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  It probably would but it won't happen. It's difficult getting anything like that through the layers of purchasing hell. If they provided a web site with pictures of boxes of software for min $2000 that never arrived and didn't do anything it might work better. The moment someone says "donate" the bean counters start sharpening their pitchforks.
  - eecc 9y ago
    How about labelling that button "support" or "maintenance contract"?
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      That just gets the legal guys on the case.
pjmlp 9y ago
We have customers were using Chrome is a security risk, because they cannot control its deployments like on FF, IE and Edge.
- cjsuk 9y ago
  Fortunately that excuse is no longer valid as they have GPO templates, MSI packages, the lot: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7358568 https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/7358568
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    Thanks for the heads up, unfortunately it won't change the IT internal guidelines.
    - cjsuk 9y ago
      This is when I tend to find a new company to work for :)
      - pjmlp 9y ago
        Except that these cases are not my employer rather some customers. In any case, I am pretty much against the mentality here that it is to switch jobs just because something isn't nice and shinny at the current employer, or customer. Not every place on Earth is like SV avid for software developers.
Delmania 9y ago
Most of those companies use AngularJS for that specific reason. It's stable, well tested and documents, and it works.

pjmlp 9y ago

What part of greenfield projects haven't you understood?! Fads come and go, Java stays strong. Many enterprise favor having mature technologies they can count on. A responsible consultant should never advise customers adopting the cool JavaScript framework of the Month (TM), unless it is for building curriculum and write cool "We migrated to tech XXXX" blog posts.

tannhaeuser 9y ago
No reason to be rude. You do realize TFA is about putting J2EE to rest, don't you? I'm well aware of Java's qualities on the backend, but ignoring browser innovation for 10 years (iPhone and the push for responsive) or even 15 years (Ajax) isn't good advice IMHO. For better or worse, the same developer attitude and deployment constraints that made Java developers never look beyond the Java ecosystem is happening with Node.js developers, now that Java doesn't give you a full stack anymore (ignoring gwt and echo, which have been deprecated for 5+ years now as well).
- sk5t 9y ago
  No more full stack in Java? How about Play, Vaadin, Spring...
  - tannhaeuser 9y ago
    Don't get me wrong, I heard good things about Play, but isn't it Scala? Vaadin I know only from a customer of mine who are using it for server-rendered charting apps and I guess it works well in that capacity. And Spring MVC in 2017? Come on. My point being that these frameworks are chosen because the options are limited to what's available on the JVM, trading last-gen Java know-how against younger (and sexier) know-how. It's also a miracle to me why JavaScript isn't more popular with Java developers, of all people, when in fact Java has two mature JavaScript engines, and JavaScript certainly is interesting from a bridge/migration perspective. Years ago Oracle and RedHat had even partial Node.js ports, but it never went very far.
    - 9y ago

znpy 9y ago

A lot of enterprises like to have a solid runtime with proper multi-threading, a comprehensive library set and a stable, well-defined API. Ask yourself why of all the languages and runtime, it's mostly Java running the enterprise world.

tannhaeuser 9y ago
But I haven't questioned Java as a backend technology.