6 ms·

>Starting again from the standard normal, adding 0.10 SD to the male mean would lead to a 1.2 to 1 male to female ratio (at ≥1.5SD); but adding a full SD would

>Starting again from the standard normal, adding 0.10 SD to the male mean would lead to a 1.2 to 1 male to female ratio (at ≥1.5SD); but adding a full SD would give almost 5:1. Remember, a 1 SD shift is a pretty big one (e.g. a difference of 3 inches for height), so not suprisingly, the evidence seems to suggest that the 10% increase in the mean is the more realistic scenario for most variables where differences seem to exist. The average male is about 6 inches taller than the average female. If a >1SD difference is possible in height, why not other areas? Or am I missing something here?

klodolph 9y ago
[deleted]
- ikeboy 9y ago
  No, the part they quoted is talking about mean.
- Smaug123 9y ago
  Is it? Have I just really badly misunderstood? > Starting again from the standard normal, adding 0.10 SD to the male mean would lead to a 1.2 to 1 male to female ratio (at ≥1.5SD); but adding a full SD would give almost 5:1 [emphasis mine]
tptacek 9y ago
If you want to conjecture that there is an X factor for technology work that has a >1SD bias for men, you can do that (for a lot of reasons, I don't think you'll be able to do it persuasively), but you'll have unmoored your argument from the premise of the Google Memo, which is that these differences are well documented in the scientific literature and it's merely culture that prevents us from talking about them.
- JamesBarney 9y ago
  One of the few >1SD ways that men and women differ is when you ask men and women what jobs they think they'd prefer. If you list jobs that have large social components like teacher, social work, etc... more women will say they sound pleasurable than men. When you list jobs with smaller social components like carpenter, electronics technician, forester, car mechanic more men will say they are pleasurable. Is this difference entirely cultural, women being told they should prefer people jobs, and men being told they should prefer thing jobs? No entirely. It looks like biology plays a significant role too. Women(XY) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are raised as women, but tend to show occupational choices that are less people oriented. And the degree to which these women have been exposed to prenatal testosterone predicts how much they'll prefer thing oriented jobs. Just to reiterate though, I don't think this is a valid reason to give up on getting more women into tech. It just means it'll be an uphill battle, and maybe we should expand our toolset to include things we otherwise wouldn't have tired. When I think about how we get to a profession with much better gender parity, I imagine the world that has changed how it sees developers. Right now the world sees great developers as technical geniuses sitting in a dark basement staring at a command line solving garbage collection bugs and doing memory dumps. But instead we thought about a great developer as someone who used their eloquent communication skills, amazing empathy and a generous helping bad ass technical skills to delight their end-users with features they didn't even know they needed. I think that's a job more 16 year old girls could get excited about. P.S. this doesn't mean we shouldn't stamp out sexism where ever it rears its ugly head. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Does this difference in job preference extend to times and places where different genders dominate some fields? For example, teaching used to be a predominantly male job in the US until the late 19th century. For a less extreme example, there used to be (proportionally) many more women in computing just a few decades ago than there are now. I'm highly suspicious of any claim that biology affects typically gendered jobs, whether because of suitability or just because of preference, because it seems like gender roles in employment ought to be a lot more consistent if that were true.
mikeash 9y ago
Is >1SD difference possible in other areas? Sure. Does it actually exist in an area that would explain gender differences in technology jobs? I'm not aware of any evidence for that.
xupybd 9y ago
Also looking at the numbers there are many industries where there is a > 1SD in female to male ratio. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18.htm Logging 3.2% Female Child day care services 94.4% Female

klodolph 9y ago

[deleted]

ikeboy 9y ago
No, the part they quoted is talking about mean.
Smaug123 9y ago
Is it? Have I just really badly misunderstood? > Starting again from the standard normal, adding 0.10 SD to the male mean would lead to a 1.2 to 1 male to female ratio (at ≥1.5SD); but adding a full SD would give almost 5:1 [emphasis mine]

tptacek 9y ago

If you want to conjecture that there is an X factor for technology work that has a >1SD bias for men, you can do that (for a lot of reasons, I don't think you'll be able to do it persuasively), but you'll have unmoored your argument from the premise of the Google Memo, which is that these differences are well documented in the scientific literature and it's merely culture that prevents us from talking about them.

JamesBarney 9y ago
One of the few >1SD ways that men and women differ is when you ask men and women what jobs they think they'd prefer. If you list jobs that have large social components like teacher, social work, etc... more women will say they sound pleasurable than men. When you list jobs with smaller social components like carpenter, electronics technician, forester, car mechanic more men will say they are pleasurable. Is this difference entirely cultural, women being told they should prefer people jobs, and men being told they should prefer thing jobs? No entirely. It looks like biology plays a significant role too. Women(XY) with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are raised as women, but tend to show occupational choices that are less people oriented. And the degree to which these women have been exposed to prenatal testosterone predicts how much they'll prefer thing oriented jobs. Just to reiterate though, I don't think this is a valid reason to give up on getting more women into tech. It just means it'll be an uphill battle, and maybe we should expand our toolset to include things we otherwise wouldn't have tired. When I think about how we get to a profession with much better gender parity, I imagine the world that has changed how it sees developers. Right now the world sees great developers as technical geniuses sitting in a dark basement staring at a command line solving garbage collection bugs and doing memory dumps. But instead we thought about a great developer as someone who used their eloquent communication skills, amazing empathy and a generous helping bad ass technical skills to delight their end-users with features they didn't even know they needed. I think that's a job more 16 year old girls could get excited about. P.S. this doesn't mean we shouldn't stamp out sexism where ever it rears its ugly head. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/
- mikeash 9y ago
  Does this difference in job preference extend to times and places where different genders dominate some fields? For example, teaching used to be a predominantly male job in the US until the late 19th century. For a less extreme example, there used to be (proportionally) many more women in computing just a few decades ago than there are now. I'm highly suspicious of any claim that biology affects typically gendered jobs, whether because of suitability or just because of preference, because it seems like gender roles in employment ought to be a lot more consistent if that were true.

mikeash 9y ago

Is >1SD difference possible in other areas? Sure. Does it actually exist in an area that would explain gender differences in technology jobs? I'm not aware of any evidence for that.

xupybd 9y ago

Also looking at the numbers there are many industries where there is a > 1SD in female to male ratio. https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat18.htm Logging 3.2% Female Child day care services 94.4% Female