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> biometric data is a username/id. > why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards? They don't have it backwards, but they're also simplifying when t

by audunw 9y ago

> biometric data is a username/id. > why do companies insist on getting this shit backwards? They don't have it backwards, but they're also simplifying when they say it's your password. In the presentation they actually say specifically that there's a chance that someone else can unlock your phone (1 in 50'000 for fingerprint, and supposedly 1 in 1'000'000 for Face ID, given that you don't have a twin). Reality is that it's somewhere in between. A fingerprint sensor or face reader will keep casual snoopers - and most people who find your phone on the street - out. That's all that matters for most people. It's not a username. It's at least moderately hard for someone to duplicate, and it's not something you'd actively share with someone. It's not as safe as a password, but Apple isn't trying to claim that either. I think it's a good idea to avoid false dichotomy here. Biometrics is biometrics. It should be treated as distinct from passwords or usernames.

tentaTherapist 9y ago
Okay, but shouldn't developers make security easy? This makes introducing a sizable hole into existing security easy, which is the opposite of what you'd want.
aquadrop 9y ago
Yes, touchId/faceId sits in between, it's quick access token, which is enough for 95% of the time, but those other 5% are very important.
- jachee 9y ago
  Those other 5% might be too important to have your phone involved with them.
  - arielpts 9y ago
    Or, if one needs those 5% moments on phones, it's always a possibility (as stated on the keynote) to add password additionally.
a_t48 9y ago
1 in 1 000 000 is the same odds as a 6 digit PIN (though you can always change a PIN). That's acceptable to me.
- kurthr 9y ago
  Unless you have a twin... that's probably OK. Ease of use is probably most important. I didn't like that the first demo phone failed!
  - baddox 9y ago
    Is it really true that adult identical twins will easily fool this or other modern face detection systems?
    - taeric 9y ago
      I don't know how they wouldn't. Hell, genetically they are probably similar enough that a DNA test can't tell the difference.
      - nly 9y ago
        Actually DNA tests exist that can tell apart twins.
        taeric 9y ago
        Is it a specific test, or all tests? If there is a story exploring this, I'd be somewhat interested in reading it.
    - lojack 9y ago
      Facial recognition is something humans are known to be better at than computers, and identical twins throw off humans all the time. Even when computers surpass humans at this task (probably not that far off) they will likely have difficulty with identical twins because of how they do facial recognition. At the moment computers do it by identifying points that correspond to the geometry of the face, like nose, eyes, and cheeks. These are all features that would be similar between twins. Usually humans can differentiate twins by fatness, scar tissue, hair style, etc. Not something that can't be overcome, but also not something common with current approaches.
ballenf 9y ago
Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed. Whether biometric access is a password or username is trying to force the wrong paradigm. Going back to first concepts, we had keys and we tried to make them hard to copy but not too inconvenient. The face is the key. No, there's no practical way to re-key this lock, but it's still a lock and key. But the door also has a deadbolt (PIN code) which has to be disengaged for the "face key" to function. The username concept applies when you have multiple people using the same resource (and don't want to know or reveal whether any 2 people use the same password) -- which again doesn't apply to a single-user device. Finally, all this combined with the quick "hard lock" of the device (5 taps of power button) gives me the impression of a very thorough approach to security.
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  > Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed. With how cheap video surveillance is these days, any PIN that you've regularly entered on your phone in public is probably recorded on video somewhere. So is your face, of course, but like you said that's much harder to reproduce.
  - mattacular 9y ago
    Yeah it's probably out there if you could magically aggregate all of the video surveillance footage in the world.
- chrischen 9y ago
  It's more like walking around with your pin written on your forehead.
  - Pigo 9y ago
mtgx 9y ago
The FAR rate is quite misleading especially for facial recognition. FAR counts on the data being "random" for that 1:50,000 or 1:1 million to be true. But you can bet whoever is targeting you will build a 3D profile of your face out of all the pictures it can find on you online. I at least assume it won't be "easy" from the get go to bypass Apple's face unlock tech, like it was for the Galaxy S8 with a god damn 2D picture that we've been known for a decade that's an effective attack, but I also don't think it's impossible. Machine learning techniques will become advanced enough in a few years to build someone's 3D profile like that. Plus, as the parent said on the issue of not being able to replace your face as you can your password, they can still target your face data stored on the phone.

by audunw 9y ago

tentaTherapist 9y ago

Okay, but shouldn't developers make security easy? This makes introducing a sizable hole into existing security easy, which is the opposite of what you'd want.

aquadrop 9y ago

Yes, touchId/faceId sits in between, it's quick access token, which is enough for 95% of the time, but those other 5% are very important.

jachee 9y ago
Those other 5% might be too important to have your phone involved with them.
- arielpts 9y ago
  Or, if one needs those 5% moments on phones, it's always a possibility (as stated on the keynote) to add password additionally.

a_t48 9y ago

1 in 1 000 000 is the same odds as a 6 digit PIN (though you can always change a PIN). That's acceptable to me.

kurthr 9y ago
Unless you have a twin... that's probably OK. Ease of use is probably most important. I didn't like that the first demo phone failed!
- baddox 9y ago
  Is it really true that adult identical twins will easily fool this or other modern face detection systems?
  - taeric 9y ago
    I don't know how they wouldn't. Hell, genetically they are probably similar enough that a DNA test can't tell the difference.
    - nly 9y ago
      Actually DNA tests exist that can tell apart twins.
      - taeric 9y ago
        Is it a specific test, or all tests? If there is a story exploring this, I'd be somewhat interested in reading it.
  - lojack 9y ago
    Facial recognition is something humans are known to be better at than computers, and identical twins throw off humans all the time. Even when computers surpass humans at this task (probably not that far off) they will likely have difficulty with identical twins because of how they do facial recognition. At the moment computers do it by identifying points that correspond to the geometry of the face, like nose, eyes, and cheeks. These are all features that would be similar between twins. Usually humans can differentiate twins by fatness, scar tissue, hair style, etc. Not something that can't be overcome, but also not something common with current approaches.

ballenf 9y ago

Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed. Whether biometric access is a password or username is trying to force the wrong paradigm. Going back to first concepts, we had keys and we tried to make them hard to copy but not too inconvenient. The face is the key. No, there's no practical way to re-key this lock, but it's still a lock and key. But the door also has a deadbolt (PIN code) which has to be disengaged for the "face key" to function. The username concept applies when you have multiple people using the same resource (and don't want to know or reveal whether any 2 people use the same password) -- which again doesn't apply to a single-user device. Finally, all this combined with the quick "hard lock" of the device (5 taps of power button) gives me the impression of a very thorough approach to security.

wlesieutre 9y ago
> Watching someone key in a PIN and recording it, then swiping the phone is easier than building a 3D printed color model of someone's face. Not to mention that having the biometric unlock sitting on top of a PIN means that there are many fewer chances for the PIN to be observed. With how cheap video surveillance is these days, any PIN that you've regularly entered on your phone in public is probably recorded on video somewhere. So is your face, of course, but like you said that's much harder to reproduce.
- mattacular 9y ago
  Yeah it's probably out there if you could magically aggregate all of the video surveillance footage in the world.
chrischen 9y ago
It's more like walking around with your pin written on your forehead.
- Pigo 9y ago

mtgx 9y ago

The FAR rate is quite misleading especially for facial recognition. FAR counts on the data being "random" for that 1:50,000 or 1:1 million to be true. But you can bet whoever is targeting you will build a 3D profile of your face out of all the pictures it can find on you online. I at least assume it won't be "easy" from the get go to bypass Apple's face unlock tech, like it was for the Galaxy S8 with a god damn 2D picture that we've been known for a decade that's an effective attack, but I also don't think it's impossible. Machine learning techniques will become advanced enough in a few years to build someone's 3D profile like that. Plus, as the parent said on the issue of not being able to replace your face as you can your password, they can still target your face data stored on the phone.