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Of course not. If you want to increase the dynamic range of color, all you have to do is increase the sampling bit depth of the picture being captured. HDR is

Of course not. If you want to increase the dynamic range of color, all you have to do is increase the sampling bit depth of the picture being captured. HDR is a specific technique which involves cheaply processing pixels to fit a different color curve than it was captured in. It's not lifelike, it's candy-like.

jerf 9y ago
I think you may have some technology terminology confusion. There are 4K panels that really can display colors that are physically impossible for other panels to display. It is true that these systems ship with fake-o postprocessing to take conventional content and smear them into these new colors, but that's a stopgap, and you aren't actually obligated to use them, you know. Just like TVs tend to ship in what I call "claw your eyes out mode" for display, but it's the work of just a few seconds to turn them back to something sane for any decent quality panel. (There are certainly panels that have no decent quality setting, no matter how much you fiddle; if you care, do some research. I do and did.) Per what I see of your other comment, whether you like it or not, there are standards being called "HDR" that includes true expanded gamut support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Stand...
- AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
  No, the new standard is called "HDR10" [1] and it standardizes the use of BT.2020. Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#HDR10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#HDR10
  - jerf 9y ago
    HDR10 is an instance of an HDR standard. All of them include higher gamut color except SL-HDR1, which is not itself an HDR standard but an encoding mechanism for embedding HDR in SDR. So it appears all the "HDR" standards include higher gamut settings, making the simplification true enough for me to call it correct.
  - izacus 9y ago
    There are three standards - HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG. Apple TV will support the first two, the last one wasn't mentioned.
  - jsjohnst 9y ago
    > Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about? Not any more than we can trust the old curmudgeons to not beat their knowledge into others by force I guess.
    - AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
      I'm not an old curmudgeon - I am a young guy who knows a lot about digital media technologies and their underlying principles. Don't trivialize my specialized knowledge by saying I'm old. The only reason you can watch anything on youtube today is because people like me cared about standards and best practices -- and most importantly, cared about being right about things. Typical "break stuff, stop reading books" mentality of engineers my age. It's sad.
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        "Old curmudgeon" has nothing to do with age, but attitude. You might be young, but doesn't mean you don't have a "get off my lawn" attitude throughout this thread.
        tomc1985 9y ago
        That matters why?
    - tomc1985 9y ago
      More often than not the old curmudgeons are right, young shits just don't want to accept it
      - jsjohnst 9y ago
        I agree completely and am often called a curmudgeon myself. That doesn't mean the attitude isn't off putting to others, even when I myself am doing it.
        tomc1985 9y ago
tomc1985 9y ago
They did the same thing for half a century with vinyl, calling it "equalization", because the response curve for vinyl records doesn't really line up with human perception. Ironically, there were so many competing equalization curves that the RIAA finally had to step in and impose their standard (the "RIAA equalization curve"), of which all phono preamps follow to this day. I don't know the technical details of HDR but this sort of curve compressions is a common trick for matching a medium to our perception. Unless important info is lost, who cares? Or, can anyone present a head-to-head comparison between 10bpp+ or "HDR"?
- AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
  The RIAA curve was used to standardize the frequency response of vinyl records. HDR post-processing is not being used to standardize the color subsampling accuracy of digital video files. It is being used to coerce pixels to following one particular subset of high-gamut color curvatures. It is NOT the same thing as 10bit color, nor as wide-gamut color spaces. It is a post-production trick used to make your eyes more enticed by the picture. It is not about higher fidelity picture, it is about higher engagement viewers.
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    Fair enough, I stand corrected on my wide-gamut assertions. If HDR is only about hacking the luminance channel that is rather... disappointing. Here I was thinking wide-gamut was finally becoming fashionable... Still, I don't think HDR is a net negative even if its just improvements in luminance -- LCD TVs are especially bad at representing shadows and I have grown tired of watching thousand-dollar TVs treat dark images like a cheap laptop. Was hoping HDR would do something about that :/
    - zero_one_one 9y ago
      BT2020/2100 covers 'Wide Gamut' and 'Higher luminance' (PQ / SMPTE ST:2084) - both of these in tandem are at the core of all existing HDR standards (aside from HLG which I'll save for another discussion). Bit depth will give you a value per color channel between zero (black) and the upper bound for that bit depth (2^n - white). How the image data is encoded in those values is very much standardized for all display colourspaces (though whether the hardware is capable of displaying the full range of those values correctly is a different story). HDR is certainly not a fad - the current crop of displays are nowhere close to being able to display the full potential of the technology yet (100% of Rec.2020 gamut @ 10,000 nits) AndrewUnmuted - are you perhaps confusing 'true' HDR with upscaled / gamut mapped rec. 709 material? e.g. taking an existing rec. 709 master and mapping the color to a larger colourspace? Netflix, Amazon and several other OTT providers have their original content mastered in true HDR from the get go - no post processing 'tricks'. The main limiting factor is the acquisition source, which is why Netflix have gone down the route of specifying acceptable cameras for use on their original content productions.
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jerf 9y ago

I think you may have some technology terminology confusion. There are 4K panels that really can display colors that are physically impossible for other panels to display. It is true that these systems ship with fake-o postprocessing to take conventional content and smear them into these new colors, but that's a stopgap, and you aren't actually obligated to use them, you know. Just like TVs tend to ship in what I call "claw your eyes out mode" for display, but it's the work of just a few seconds to turn them back to something sane for any decent quality panel. (There are certainly panels that have no decent quality setting, no matter how much you fiddle; if you care, do some research. I do and did.) Per what I see of your other comment, whether you like it or not, there are standards being called "HDR" that includes true expanded gamut support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Stand...

AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
No, the new standard is called "HDR10" [1] and it standardizes the use of BT.2020. Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#HDR10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#HDR10
- jerf 9y ago
  HDR10 is an instance of an HDR standard. All of them include higher gamut color except SL-HDR1, which is not itself an HDR standard but an encoding mechanism for embedding HDR in SDR. So it appears all the "HDR" standards include higher gamut settings, making the simplification true enough for me to call it correct.
- izacus 9y ago
  There are three standards - HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG. Apple TV will support the first two, the last one wasn't mentioned.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  > Can we not even trust people on HN to only speak to what they know about? Not any more than we can trust the old curmudgeons to not beat their knowledge into others by force I guess.
  - AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
    I'm not an old curmudgeon - I am a young guy who knows a lot about digital media technologies and their underlying principles. Don't trivialize my specialized knowledge by saying I'm old. The only reason you can watch anything on youtube today is because people like me cared about standards and best practices -- and most importantly, cared about being right about things. Typical "break stuff, stop reading books" mentality of engineers my age. It's sad.
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      "Old curmudgeon" has nothing to do with age, but attitude. You might be young, but doesn't mean you don't have a "get off my lawn" attitude throughout this thread.
      - tomc1985 9y ago
        That matters why?
  - tomc1985 9y ago
    More often than not the old curmudgeons are right, young shits just don't want to accept it
    - jsjohnst 9y ago
      I agree completely and am often called a curmudgeon myself. That doesn't mean the attitude isn't off putting to others, even when I myself am doing it.
      - tomc1985 9y ago

tomc1985 9y ago

They did the same thing for half a century with vinyl, calling it "equalization", because the response curve for vinyl records doesn't really line up with human perception. Ironically, there were so many competing equalization curves that the RIAA finally had to step in and impose their standard (the "RIAA equalization curve"), of which all phono preamps follow to this day. I don't know the technical details of HDR but this sort of curve compressions is a common trick for matching a medium to our perception. Unless important info is lost, who cares? Or, can anyone present a head-to-head comparison between 10bpp+ or "HDR"?

AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
The RIAA curve was used to standardize the frequency response of vinyl records. HDR post-processing is not being used to standardize the color subsampling accuracy of digital video files. It is being used to coerce pixels to following one particular subset of high-gamut color curvatures. It is NOT the same thing as 10bit color, nor as wide-gamut color spaces. It is a post-production trick used to make your eyes more enticed by the picture. It is not about higher fidelity picture, it is about higher engagement viewers.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Fair enough, I stand corrected on my wide-gamut assertions. If HDR is only about hacking the luminance channel that is rather... disappointing. Here I was thinking wide-gamut was finally becoming fashionable... Still, I don't think HDR is a net negative even if its just improvements in luminance -- LCD TVs are especially bad at representing shadows and I have grown tired of watching thousand-dollar TVs treat dark images like a cheap laptop. Was hoping HDR would do something about that :/
  - zero_one_one 9y ago
    BT2020/2100 covers 'Wide Gamut' and 'Higher luminance' (PQ / SMPTE ST:2084) - both of these in tandem are at the core of all existing HDR standards (aside from HLG which I'll save for another discussion). Bit depth will give you a value per color channel between zero (black) and the upper bound for that bit depth (2^n - white). How the image data is encoded in those values is very much standardized for all display colourspaces (though whether the hardware is capable of displaying the full range of those values correctly is a different story). HDR is certainly not a fad - the current crop of displays are nowhere close to being able to display the full potential of the technology yet (100% of Rec.2020 gamut @ 10,000 nits) AndrewUnmuted - are you perhaps confusing 'true' HDR with upscaled / gamut mapped rec. 709 material? e.g. taking an existing rec. 709 master and mapping the color to a larger colourspace? Netflix, Amazon and several other OTT providers have their original content mastered in true HDR from the get go - no post processing 'tricks'. The main limiting factor is the acquisition source, which is why Netflix have gone down the route of specifying acceptable cameras for use on their original content productions.

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