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>Bitcoin fell to trade around its session lows after Dimon's comments. As of 2:05 p.m. in New York, bitcoin traded at $4,154.04, down 0.8 percent. What percent

>Bitcoin fell to trade around its session lows after Dimon's comments. As of 2:05 p.m. in New York, bitcoin traded at $4,154.04, down 0.8 percent. What percentage of bitcoin users actually use it often for its practical value, as opposed to hoarding and speculating? How to estimate this?

ISL 9y ago
An 0.8% fluctuation is entirely irrelevant to an instrument where the price has fluctuated by 20% in the last week. Regarding use, one of the interesting metrics is "Bitcoin-days destroyed", which gives insight into how often the coins change hands.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
stephengillie 9y ago
The $5 transaction fee creates a floor for transactions. If other processors charge a 2% fee, then it doesn't make sense to use Bitcoin to transfer funds or use for purchases lower than $25. This already blocks a huge array of daily transactions, including a $20 ATM withdrawal and probably lunch. Additionally, there is a floor to the fractionality of Bitcoin, of 100 000 000 Satoshi. If Bitcoin ever reaches $1,000,000, then it could only be divided into $0.01 denominations, and not further. If it reaches $2,000,000, then 1 Satoshi would be worth 2 cents.
- alphydan 9y ago
  > The $5 transaction fee There is no such thing unless you are in a hurry.
  - MSM 9y ago
    True, but for most reasonable purchases, time is of some sensitivity. Even using his previous examples, withdrawing $20 or buying lunch, you can't wait hours or days- you usually want them immediately.
  - wil421 9y ago
    Arugueably I'm in a hurry anytime I do a monetary transaction. Except my check to the landlord, he's never in a hurry for me.
    - slededit 9y ago
      Considering most bank transactions take days to settle you probably have more time than you think.
      - stephengillie 9y ago
        Bank holidays really put the "automated" in Automated Clearing House. Robots are going to take your job, but not on President's Day, Columbus Day, Labor Day, or Memorial Day.
  - Latty 9y ago
    No one wants to wait for a transaction. "Let me wait 5m for my ATM to give me my money."
  - darpa_escapee 9y ago
    > There is no such thing unless you are in a hurry. I think this is easy to say because we don't have to wait hours every time we use cash or our debit or credit cards. It's reminiscent of using checks for everything. Businesses would have to factor in the possibility of checks bouncing or Bitcoin transactions being rejected after the POS transaction.
drcode 9y ago
I miss the olden times when there used to be something called "saving"... nowadays everyone is just "hoarding".
- eropple 9y ago
  People don't call the saving of stable, non-speculative currencies "hoarding".
  - graedus 9y ago
    Yes they do. Here's a Bloomberg headline I just ran across today: "Rich Retirees Are Hoarding Cash Out of Fear" [0] The word hoarding is often used to cast ordinary and prudent saving of stable, non-speculative currencies like US Dollars and Euros in a negative light. Economists and central bankers often want the inflation rate to be higher - to reduce debt loads, among other reasons - so they want people (other people, of course) to stop saving so much and start spending more. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-16/rich-retirees-are-hoarding-cash-out-of-fear https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-16/rich-reti... edit: grammar
    - eropple 9y ago
      Huh. I stand corrected. I've never seen that before. Mea culpa.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      Well, there's an efficiency argument related to holding onto cash instead of investing. That is, holding onto large quantities of cash and not investing means losing out on returns. The only time that's rational is if there's significant market risk, or if you get better returns due to appreciation in currency value (which amounts to treating money like a commodity/investment). So, I'd argue that holding onto large quantities of money in lieu of allowing it to circulate due to fears does qualify as "hoarding", insofar as the money could be put to better, more productive use while the person holding onto the cash may be losing out on potential upside. The term is particularly apt when there are concerns of a deflationary spiral, as cash hoarding truly does become a problem in that circumstance.
tveita 9y ago
> How to estimate this? Ratio of actual purchases on sites compared to the number of "please let people pay with bitcoin" requests they got before adding it? I've seen varying reports ranging from low to super low. Old but e.g. https://fundraising.mozilla.org/bitcoin-donations-to-mozilla-17-days-in/ https://fundraising.mozilla.org/bitcoin-donations-to-mozilla...
ringaroundthetx 9y ago
M1 supply is always a tiny fraction of the M2, M3 and MB money supply. Because people are speculating with an otherwise illiquid amount of the currency. Strange separate standard to create for bitcoin since it is functioning as intended, under that standard. So congratulations bitcoin is full of speculators? How do people come to the opposite conclusion with the same information.

ISL 9y ago

An 0.8% fluctuation is entirely irrelevant to an instrument where the price has fluctuated by 20% in the last week. Regarding use, one of the interesting metrics is "Bitcoin-days destroyed", which gives insight into how often the coins change hands.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

stephengillie 9y ago

The $5 transaction fee creates a floor for transactions. If other processors charge a 2% fee, then it doesn't make sense to use Bitcoin to transfer funds or use for purchases lower than $25. This already blocks a huge array of daily transactions, including a $20 ATM withdrawal and probably lunch. Additionally, there is a floor to the fractionality of Bitcoin, of 100 000 000 Satoshi. If Bitcoin ever reaches $1,000,000, then it could only be divided into $0.01 denominations, and not further. If it reaches $2,000,000, then 1 Satoshi would be worth 2 cents.

alphydan 9y ago
> The $5 transaction fee There is no such thing unless you are in a hurry.
- MSM 9y ago
  True, but for most reasonable purchases, time is of some sensitivity. Even using his previous examples, withdrawing $20 or buying lunch, you can't wait hours or days- you usually want them immediately.
- wil421 9y ago
  Arugueably I'm in a hurry anytime I do a monetary transaction. Except my check to the landlord, he's never in a hurry for me.
  - slededit 9y ago
    Considering most bank transactions take days to settle you probably have more time than you think.
    - stephengillie 9y ago
      Bank holidays really put the "automated" in Automated Clearing House. Robots are going to take your job, but not on President's Day, Columbus Day, Labor Day, or Memorial Day.
- Latty 9y ago
  No one wants to wait for a transaction. "Let me wait 5m for my ATM to give me my money."
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  > There is no such thing unless you are in a hurry. I think this is easy to say because we don't have to wait hours every time we use cash or our debit or credit cards. It's reminiscent of using checks for everything. Businesses would have to factor in the possibility of checks bouncing or Bitcoin transactions being rejected after the POS transaction.

drcode 9y ago

I miss the olden times when there used to be something called "saving"... nowadays everyone is just "hoarding".

eropple 9y ago
People don't call the saving of stable, non-speculative currencies "hoarding".
- graedus 9y ago
  Yes they do. Here's a Bloomberg headline I just ran across today: "Rich Retirees Are Hoarding Cash Out of Fear" [0] The word hoarding is often used to cast ordinary and prudent saving of stable, non-speculative currencies like US Dollars and Euros in a negative light. Economists and central bankers often want the inflation rate to be higher - to reduce debt loads, among other reasons - so they want people (other people, of course) to stop saving so much and start spending more. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-16/rich-retirees-are-hoarding-cash-out-of-fear https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-16/rich-reti... edit: grammar
  - eropple 9y ago
    Huh. I stand corrected. I've never seen that before. Mea culpa.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Well, there's an efficiency argument related to holding onto cash instead of investing. That is, holding onto large quantities of cash and not investing means losing out on returns. The only time that's rational is if there's significant market risk, or if you get better returns due to appreciation in currency value (which amounts to treating money like a commodity/investment). So, I'd argue that holding onto large quantities of money in lieu of allowing it to circulate due to fears does qualify as "hoarding", insofar as the money could be put to better, more productive use while the person holding onto the cash may be losing out on potential upside. The term is particularly apt when there are concerns of a deflationary spiral, as cash hoarding truly does become a problem in that circumstance.

tveita 9y ago

> How to estimate this? Ratio of actual purchases on sites compared to the number of "please let people pay with bitcoin" requests they got before adding it? I've seen varying reports ranging from low to super low. Old but e.g. https://fundraising.mozilla.org/bitcoin-donations-to-mozilla-17-days-in/ https://fundraising.mozilla.org/bitcoin-donations-to-mozilla...

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

M1 supply is always a tiny fraction of the M2, M3 and MB money supply. Because people are speculating with an otherwise illiquid amount of the currency. Strange separate standard to create for bitcoin since it is functioning as intended, under that standard. So congratulations bitcoin is full of speculators? How do people come to the opposite conclusion with the same information.