7 ms·

Apple TV 4K brings home the magic of cinema with 4K and HDR

35 points by runesoerensen 9y ago

berberous 9y ago
$179? Unlike the iPhone and Macbook, I think it's really hard to argue the Apple TV is better than its much lower cost competitors.
- Moto7451 9y ago
  It doesn't have to be better, just on par. The reason to buy one is because you have a 4K TV and you are already buying TV/Movie content from Apple, use Airplay, Apple Music, etc. It's a really easy experience v.s. juggling multiple providers and TV sticks. Likewise, if you're already deep into Google territory and are buying content from Google Play Music/Videos, YouTube RED, have an Android phone, etc - a Chromecast is the obvious choice since that all works seamlessly in that environment.
  - dublinben 9y ago
    Who is still buying/renting movies from Apple iTunes anymore? Their share of the market has fallen in half in recent years. [0] The better experience, as demonstrated by market success, is provided by cross-platform networks like Amazon and Comcast. [0] http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-video-sales-and-rentals-reportedly-in-free-fall-amidst-competition-from-amazon-comcast http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-video...
freedomben 9y ago
I'm generally not an Apple person, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I'm just that not that excited for anything they are doing. It feels way behind Google Home and Amazon.
- ctrl-j 9y ago
  > It feels way behind Google Home and Amazon. Between Apple, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft - Apple is the only one I would invite into my home to listen to my activities. Perhaps it's just marketing, but the other three have not done anything to earn my trust. Apple at least appears to be concerned about my privacy.
  - mmanfrin 9y ago
    I know Amazon's intentions and their profit motive: to get me to buy things. This makes me okay with an Alexa in my home. Google is murkier, but I feel assuaged a bit because they have -- hands down -- the best 'knowledge engine' for a speaker. Microsoft will never, ever have a live mic in my home. I have done everything I can find to neuter any background listening my Win10 PC can do. Apple wins on the privacy front, but they have neither the broad knowledge available that Google does nor the 2 years of experience that Amazon does.
    - freedomben 9y ago
      I feel completely the same way. I have appreciated the control Google has given us now as well with being able to manage some of the data stored on us. I know they see everything I do, but between the well-working product and ~illusion of~ control, they have me. On the other hand, it will take a lot for me to trust Microsoft again.
- craigyk 9y ago
  I feel you about Apple a bit... but you lost me with those other two. They seem even more boring with their offerings. Oh, plus free upgrade to 4K version of things I've bought? Awesome, that is the dream of buying online media... I once ripped my 300 movie DVD collection and couldn't be bothered to upgrade or redo anything in blu-ray. The free upgrade was truly a best case scenario for me, and I was excited to hear about that.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    Free upgrade to 4K is pretty awesome. I'm still trying to accept that DRM-free isn't going to happen with video, and at least moves like this make me feel a _little_ better about it.
Animats 9y ago
There are rows of 4K TVs at Costco and WalMart. Apple is late to the party.
- johansch 9y ago
  The model launched two years ago (Apple TV 4) remains at $149. That hardware hasn't gotten cheaper at all in two years? The spec-bumped 4k one is $179. It should have been $99/$149.
  - mkempe 9y ago
    I agree. Something changed with their pricing strategy in the last couple of years. They used to keep and shift previous generations down the price curve to eat more of the spectrum of demand, but now they seem to be shifting new offerings up the price curve instead.
    - johansch 9y ago
      They simultaneously reached a saturation point in most rich markets.. and stopped being able to innovate themselves into higher price points. Steve used to be around to to direct them into risky but likely profitable endeavours.. Like for example doing zero profit on the Apple TV to grow critical mass. Not so much any longer. This is so fcking sad. Instead of building computing jewels, the Apple of today is focusing on building actual... jewels. Steve did a major fuckup to give control to Tim.
      - mkempe 9y ago
        That may be one element. I think of what they do and how they talk about it as invoking the spirit of Steve, but not quite knowing what his spirit stood for. (I suppose when one approaches death knowing that cancer is eating you, one struggles with clarity of mind and purpose to fittingly identify and choose one's heir to keep the revolution going.) Their cheapest iPod is now $199. Their cheapest iPhone is $349. Their cheapest TV-streamer is $149. They've steadily eliminated the lower-price options they had, by neglecting to offer older product generations, or by eliminating the simpler models. The iPod shuffle was $49, iPod nano $149, Apple TV was $99 (often just $49). It's as if they no longer want to participate in the lower range of the supply-demand curves. Before the iPhone you could walk into an Apple store with any price in mind from $50 on up, and you would find some decent iPod that would fit your budget every $50-step up (once you had chosen the most expensive iPod, there were headphones available to absorb further spending interest). At some point they decided the spending floor should be $200 or more, instead of wanting everybody to buy Apple products and thus participate in the personal computing revolution. Even their HomePod is absurdly priced starting at $349...
fredsted 9y ago
The last generation should've had 4K. Way overdue.
- christoph 9y ago
  Way overdue. My Nvidia Shield set top box has 4K HDR and it's over 2 years old now and basically cost the same then as the Apple TV costs today.
  - mmanfrin 9y ago
    Also has had Amazon for nearly a year now, can stream actual AAA PC games, has Chromecast built in.
    - lostmsu 9y ago
      How do you stream PC games?
      - christoph 9y ago
        https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/games/gamestream/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/games/gamestream/
- ashark 9y ago
  What percentage of TVs in the wild, even among Apple buyers, were 4K at the time? What percentage of streamed content on 4K-supporting devices was 4K? Even a small price increase might have made it a bad idea for a product intended for the general (even the general potentially-Apple-buying) market.
  - sscotth 9y ago
    "Skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been."
  - fredsted 9y ago
AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
HDR is just another gimmick that will probably not scale into anything long-lasting, nor anything beneficial to the consumer. It's being used to remove all that remains of the realism and life-like immersion of visual media in this insanely media-illiterate world. Right up Apple's alley, actually. EDIT: People who are downvoting me are doing so because they don't know anything about video. EDIT #2: I am very disappointed in the non-factual answers to my post, and that people would choose to downvote rather than jump in with anything even remotely accurate or helpful. These technologies are major components to the future of the web, and people on HN best become media literate if they want to keep their comfy jobs.
- tomc1985 9y ago
  Isn't the whole point of HDR to make things even more lifelike and immersive? From a technical standpoint 8-bits-per-color was never enough to display anywhere near the full spectrum. I've also personally been peeved with the flat, weak-ass dynamic range on most TVs and anything to add a few bits to the stream seems like a win in my book. Unless, somehow, this ends up stuck in a rut in the uncanny valley (or someone wants to make the filesize argument), how is improved dynamic range a bad thing?
  - AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
    Of course not. If you want to increase the dynamic range of color, all you have to do is increase the sampling bit depth of the picture being captured. HDR is a specific technique which involves cheaply processing pixels to fit a different color curve than it was captured in. It's not lifelike, it's candy-like.
    - jerf 9y ago
      I think you may have some technology terminology confusion. There are 4K panels that really can display colors that are physically impossible for other panels to display. It is true that these systems ship with fake-o postprocessing to take conventional content and smear them into these new colors, but that's a stopgap, and you aren't actually obligated to use them, you know. Just like TVs tend to ship in what I call "claw your eyes out mode" for display, but it's the work of just a few seconds to turn them back to something sane for any decent quality panel. (There are certainly panels that have no decent quality setting, no matter how much you fiddle; if you care, do some research. I do and did.) Per what I see of your other comment, whether you like it or not, there are standards being called "HDR" that includes true expanded gamut support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Stand...
stepik777 9y ago
.
- Pharaoh2 9y ago
  100% because it depends on your TV not the device sending the signals, assuming the source device supports rec 2020 at all that is...
runesoerensen 9y ago
The product page is up now: https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/ https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/
- ascagnel_ 9y ago
  Sadly, no mention of if the device supports 120Hz output (even if it's only at 1080p) to avoid 3:2 pulldowns.
mozumder 9y ago
4K benefits will be lost without Dolby Vision or DCI-P3 TVs. People notice color more than resolution, and right now there aren't enough people that own high color-space TVs. They instead have crappy 4k TV and that's going to limit the market, with people thinking that's going to be good enough.
- Sargos 9y ago
  HDR10 is the dominant standard and it supports that. The KS8000, arguably the most standard/common 4K TV of the last year, doesn't even have DV support. I'm not sure that will actually hurt them. Pretty much all TVs support HDR10.
  - zero_one_one 9y ago
    The vast majority of consumer HDR displays aren't capable of displaying the full P3 Gamut - let alone making a proper dent on Rec. 2020.
pier25 9y ago
And again, Apple not including a gamepad by default or offering an official one. Playing with the included remote is super limited so games have to be designed with that in mind. Game devs won't risk making a game that needs a third party accessory, so Apple again killed all gaming potential for the Apple TV.
nsxwolf 9y ago
Same terrible interface. Same terrible remote. But in 4K now.
- darrenkopp 9y ago
  I use my iPhone so I don't care about the remote that much. The 4K aspect is much more important to me because, honestly, the Android TV experience that is included with my TV is much, much worse. It was pretty reasonable at first, but I think an update has basically destroyed wifi stability and netflix constantly refuses to connect. Finally, I can use my 4K TV reliably.
  - nsxwolf 9y ago
    That's precisely why I hate the remote - because it's so much like the iPhone app, which I also hate using. The only improvement with the remote is that you don't have to wait eons for it to connect every time you want to pause. I just want a clicky directional pad. Just put the Siri button on the old remote. I just can't believe they are doubling down on their worst reviewed product. 1.5 stars on their own site.
ProfessorLayton 9y ago
I've been pretty happy with my current Apple TV, and am moderately tempted to upgrade to ATV 4K. My 4k TV has had no 4k devices connected to it since I got it last year. The biggest drawback is that damn glass remote. I dropped it on my hardwood floor and now it has a rather large chip in it. Thankfully its not on the touch surface. My biggest annoyance UX-wise is that the touchpad button takes input without capacitance on the touchpad. This means I'm inadvertently pausing videos all the time when the remote is between my couch cushions. This is completely baffling, since this should be a solved problem, my MBP's touchpad doesn't accept clicks without capacitance.

35 points by runesoerensen 9y ago

$179? Unlike the iPhone and Macbook, I think it's really hard to argue the Apple TV is better than its much lower cost competitors.

Moto7451 9y ago
It doesn't have to be better, just on par. The reason to buy one is because you have a 4K TV and you are already buying TV/Movie content from Apple, use Airplay, Apple Music, etc. It's a really easy experience v.s. juggling multiple providers and TV sticks. Likewise, if you're already deep into Google territory and are buying content from Google Play Music/Videos, YouTube RED, have an Android phone, etc - a Chromecast is the obvious choice since that all works seamlessly in that environment.
- dublinben 9y ago
  Who is still buying/renting movies from Apple iTunes anymore? Their share of the market has fallen in half in recent years. [0] The better experience, as demonstrated by market success, is provided by cross-platform networks like Amazon and Comcast. [0] http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-video-sales-and-rentals-reportedly-in-free-fall-amidst-competition-from-amazon-comcast http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/07/09/apple-itunes-video...

freedomben 9y ago

I'm generally not an Apple person, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I'm just that not that excited for anything they are doing. It feels way behind Google Home and Amazon.

ctrl-j 9y ago
> It feels way behind Google Home and Amazon. Between Apple, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft - Apple is the only one I would invite into my home to listen to my activities. Perhaps it's just marketing, but the other three have not done anything to earn my trust. Apple at least appears to be concerned about my privacy.
- mmanfrin 9y ago
  I know Amazon's intentions and their profit motive: to get me to buy things. This makes me okay with an Alexa in my home. Google is murkier, but I feel assuaged a bit because they have -- hands down -- the best 'knowledge engine' for a speaker. Microsoft will never, ever have a live mic in my home. I have done everything I can find to neuter any background listening my Win10 PC can do. Apple wins on the privacy front, but they have neither the broad knowledge available that Google does nor the 2 years of experience that Amazon does.
  - freedomben 9y ago
    I feel completely the same way. I have appreciated the control Google has given us now as well with being able to manage some of the data stored on us. I know they see everything I do, but between the well-working product and ~illusion of~ control, they have me. On the other hand, it will take a lot for me to trust Microsoft again.
craigyk 9y ago
I feel you about Apple a bit... but you lost me with those other two. They seem even more boring with their offerings. Oh, plus free upgrade to 4K version of things I've bought? Awesome, that is the dream of buying online media... I once ripped my 300 movie DVD collection and couldn't be bothered to upgrade or redo anything in blu-ray. The free upgrade was truly a best case scenario for me, and I was excited to hear about that.
- freedomben 9y ago
  Free upgrade to 4K is pretty awesome. I'm still trying to accept that DRM-free isn't going to happen with video, and at least moves like this make me feel a _little_ better about it.

Animats 9y ago

There are rows of 4K TVs at Costco and WalMart. Apple is late to the party.

johansch 9y ago
The model launched two years ago (Apple TV 4) remains at $149. That hardware hasn't gotten cheaper at all in two years? The spec-bumped 4k one is $179. It should have been $99/$149.
- mkempe 9y ago
  I agree. Something changed with their pricing strategy in the last couple of years. They used to keep and shift previous generations down the price curve to eat more of the spectrum of demand, but now they seem to be shifting new offerings up the price curve instead.
  - johansch 9y ago
    They simultaneously reached a saturation point in most rich markets.. and stopped being able to innovate themselves into higher price points. Steve used to be around to to direct them into risky but likely profitable endeavours.. Like for example doing zero profit on the Apple TV to grow critical mass. Not so much any longer. This is so fcking sad. Instead of building computing jewels, the Apple of today is focusing on building actual... jewels. Steve did a major fuckup to give control to Tim.
    - mkempe 9y ago
      That may be one element. I think of what they do and how they talk about it as invoking the spirit of Steve, but not quite knowing what his spirit stood for. (I suppose when one approaches death knowing that cancer is eating you, one struggles with clarity of mind and purpose to fittingly identify and choose one's heir to keep the revolution going.) Their cheapest iPod is now $199. Their cheapest iPhone is $349. Their cheapest TV-streamer is $149. They've steadily eliminated the lower-price options they had, by neglecting to offer older product generations, or by eliminating the simpler models. The iPod shuffle was $49, iPod nano $149, Apple TV was $99 (often just $49). It's as if they no longer want to participate in the lower range of the supply-demand curves. Before the iPhone you could walk into an Apple store with any price in mind from $50 on up, and you would find some decent iPod that would fit your budget every $50-step up (once you had chosen the most expensive iPod, there were headphones available to absorb further spending interest). At some point they decided the spending floor should be $200 or more, instead of wanting everybody to buy Apple products and thus participate in the personal computing revolution. Even their HomePod is absurdly priced starting at $349...

fredsted 9y ago

The last generation should've had 4K. Way overdue.

christoph 9y ago
Way overdue. My Nvidia Shield set top box has 4K HDR and it's over 2 years old now and basically cost the same then as the Apple TV costs today.
- mmanfrin 9y ago
  Also has had Amazon for nearly a year now, can stream actual AAA PC games, has Chromecast built in.
  - lostmsu 9y ago
    How do you stream PC games?
    - christoph 9y ago
      https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/games/gamestream/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/shield/games/gamestream/
ashark 9y ago
What percentage of TVs in the wild, even among Apple buyers, were 4K at the time? What percentage of streamed content on 4K-supporting devices was 4K? Even a small price increase might have made it a bad idea for a product intended for the general (even the general potentially-Apple-buying) market.
- sscotth 9y ago
  "Skate to where the puck is going, not where it has been."
- fredsted 9y ago

AndrewUnmuted 9y ago

HDR is just another gimmick that will probably not scale into anything long-lasting, nor anything beneficial to the consumer. It's being used to remove all that remains of the realism and life-like immersion of visual media in this insanely media-illiterate world. Right up Apple's alley, actually. EDIT: People who are downvoting me are doing so because they don't know anything about video. EDIT #2: I am very disappointed in the non-factual answers to my post, and that people would choose to downvote rather than jump in with anything even remotely accurate or helpful. These technologies are major components to the future of the web, and people on HN best become media literate if they want to keep their comfy jobs.

tomc1985 9y ago
Isn't the whole point of HDR to make things even more lifelike and immersive? From a technical standpoint 8-bits-per-color was never enough to display anywhere near the full spectrum. I've also personally been peeved with the flat, weak-ass dynamic range on most TVs and anything to add a few bits to the stream seems like a win in my book. Unless, somehow, this ends up stuck in a rut in the uncanny valley (or someone wants to make the filesize argument), how is improved dynamic range a bad thing?
- AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
  Of course not. If you want to increase the dynamic range of color, all you have to do is increase the sampling bit depth of the picture being captured. HDR is a specific technique which involves cheaply processing pixels to fit a different color curve than it was captured in. It's not lifelike, it's candy-like.
  - jerf 9y ago
    I think you may have some technology terminology confusion. There are 4K panels that really can display colors that are physically impossible for other panels to display. It is true that these systems ship with fake-o postprocessing to take conventional content and smear them into these new colors, but that's a stopgap, and you aren't actually obligated to use them, you know. Just like TVs tend to ship in what I call "claw your eyes out mode" for display, but it's the work of just a few seconds to turn them back to something sane for any decent quality panel. (There are certainly panels that have no decent quality setting, no matter how much you fiddle; if you care, do some research. I do and did.) Per what I see of your other comment, whether you like it or not, there are standards being called "HDR" that includes true expanded gamut support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Stand...

stepik777 9y ago

Pharaoh2 9y ago
100% because it depends on your TV not the device sending the signals, assuming the source device supports rec 2020 at all that is...

runesoerensen 9y ago

The product page is up now: https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/ https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-4k/

ascagnel_ 9y ago
Sadly, no mention of if the device supports 120Hz output (even if it's only at 1080p) to avoid 3:2 pulldowns.

mozumder 9y ago

4K benefits will be lost without Dolby Vision or DCI-P3 TVs. People notice color more than resolution, and right now there aren't enough people that own high color-space TVs. They instead have crappy 4k TV and that's going to limit the market, with people thinking that's going to be good enough.

Sargos 9y ago
HDR10 is the dominant standard and it supports that. The KS8000, arguably the most standard/common 4K TV of the last year, doesn't even have DV support. I'm not sure that will actually hurt them. Pretty much all TVs support HDR10.
- zero_one_one 9y ago
  The vast majority of consumer HDR displays aren't capable of displaying the full P3 Gamut - let alone making a proper dent on Rec. 2020.

pier25 9y ago

And again, Apple not including a gamepad by default or offering an official one. Playing with the included remote is super limited so games have to be designed with that in mind. Game devs won't risk making a game that needs a third party accessory, so Apple again killed all gaming potential for the Apple TV.

nsxwolf 9y ago

Same terrible interface. Same terrible remote. But in 4K now.

darrenkopp 9y ago
I use my iPhone so I don't care about the remote that much. The 4K aspect is much more important to me because, honestly, the Android TV experience that is included with my TV is much, much worse. It was pretty reasonable at first, but I think an update has basically destroyed wifi stability and netflix constantly refuses to connect. Finally, I can use my 4K TV reliably.
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  That's precisely why I hate the remote - because it's so much like the iPhone app, which I also hate using. The only improvement with the remote is that you don't have to wait eons for it to connect every time you want to pause. I just want a clicky directional pad. Just put the Siri button on the old remote. I just can't believe they are doubling down on their worst reviewed product. 1.5 stars on their own site.

ProfessorLayton 9y ago

I've been pretty happy with my current Apple TV, and am moderately tempted to upgrade to ATV 4K. My 4k TV has had no 4k devices connected to it since I got it last year. The biggest drawback is that damn glass remote. I dropped it on my hardwood floor and now it has a rather large chip in it. Thankfully its not on the touch surface. My biggest annoyance UX-wise is that the touchpad button takes input without capacitance on the touchpad. This means I'm inadvertently pausing videos all the time when the remote is between my couch cushions. This is completely baffling, since this should be a solved problem, my MBP's touchpad doesn't accept clicks without capacitance.