5 ms·

But that's what I mean - we already have Emacs/Vim, with their million of extensions, which are always going to be faster. Outside of that we have Visual Studio

But that's what I mean - we already have Emacs/Vim, with their million of extensions, which are always going to be faster. Outside of that we have Visual Studio, IntelliJ, PyCharm, the list goes on. All downloadable for free.

simlevesque 9y ago
> going to be faster Fast is not the end goal.
- cat199 9y ago
  it is when 'unusably slow' is the alternative..
- khedoros1 9y ago
  At no time should my tool be the speed bottleneck. UI responsiveness is part of that. Correct code may require a certain slowness, but a slow editor will impose extra pauses that break up your workflow unnecessarily.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
Emacs/Vim are far from being transparent. They have a very steep initial learning curve, and put off a lot of potential users as a result.
- yorwba 9y ago
  It's been years since I last used an IDE, but in my experience, they come with huge toolbars stuffed full of menus to open wizards with tons of options. The learning curve is just as steep. Their advantage is that they provide lots of automatic features like spellcheck and autocomplete out-of-the-box, whereas you have to set these up yourself for Emacs/Vim.
  - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
    I think that's why people are talking up what they see as an alternative to the monolithic IDE: the lightweight text editor with support for extensions. I know Atom isn't particularly lightweight in terms of memory usage, but it is in terms of functionality.
    - bitwize 9y ago
      > I think that's why people are talking up what they see as an alternative to the monolithic IDE: the lightweight text editor with support for extensions. Which is what vim and emacs, relative to IntelliJ, VS, VSCode, and Atom, are.
      - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
        Lightweight text editor that doesn't drive you crazy the first time you try to quit it? ;-) As I said in another comment, I'm a daily vi user, but that's almost always when it's my only option. And that's been the case for well over a decade now. I just happen to feel more comfortable using sublime text; I always know how to do what I need to do, it's obvious, it's a pleasant experience. But I totally get some people have the same experience with vi/Emacs, and that's cool.
    - adrianN 9y ago
      Lightweight in terms of functionality, not lightweight in terms of memory. Excellent combination.
      - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
        One out of two ain't bad. At least they've left the one which will get 'fixed' if they just do nothing for long enough.
- bitwize 9y ago
  Oh, geez, cowboy up. Nontechnical secretaries learned how to use Multics Emacs back in the 70s and extend it using Lisp. Now you're telling me we can't expect professional programmers to learn it or vim?
  - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
    If the return on investment justifies it, of course learn vi/Emacs. I use vi myself on a daily basis, but you must admit that not every professional programmer does. For those that don't, atom might be another option.
yodsanklai 9y ago
> we already have Emacs/Vim, with their million of extensions My experience is that Vim is hard to use when you start to add too many extensions. There are just too many shortcuts to remember, plugins may interact in unexpected ways, and things like contextual information don't look as nice as they could. It just feels very 'hacky' to try to use it as an IDE. I prefer to use more recent editors (first Sublime, but I'm sold to VSCode now) that are better suited to modern display and usages. I still use vim mode but I'm not even sure I'm really more productive with it. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't focus on just using mac os default binding.
- tomelders 9y ago
  I've never gotten into Vim, but a friend said something that piqued my interest. Editing text is boring. Programming is fun. Vim makes text editing like programming.
  - howlgram 9y ago
    I'm learning vim and I agree, even if there's no productivity gain (duh I'm new to it) it makes my work way more fun (I do have a contrived concept of fun though).

simlevesque 9y ago

> going to be faster Fast is not the end goal.

cat199 9y ago
it is when 'unusably slow' is the alternative..
khedoros1 9y ago
At no time should my tool be the speed bottleneck. UI responsiveness is part of that. Correct code may require a certain slowness, but a slow editor will impose extra pauses that break up your workflow unnecessarily.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

oneeyedpigeon 9y ago

Emacs/Vim are far from being transparent. They have a very steep initial learning curve, and put off a lot of potential users as a result.

yorwba 9y ago
It's been years since I last used an IDE, but in my experience, they come with huge toolbars stuffed full of menus to open wizards with tons of options. The learning curve is just as steep. Their advantage is that they provide lots of automatic features like spellcheck and autocomplete out-of-the-box, whereas you have to set these up yourself for Emacs/Vim.
- oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
  I think that's why people are talking up what they see as an alternative to the monolithic IDE: the lightweight text editor with support for extensions. I know Atom isn't particularly lightweight in terms of memory usage, but it is in terms of functionality.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    > I think that's why people are talking up what they see as an alternative to the monolithic IDE: the lightweight text editor with support for extensions. Which is what vim and emacs, relative to IntelliJ, VS, VSCode, and Atom, are.
    - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
      Lightweight text editor that doesn't drive you crazy the first time you try to quit it? ;-) As I said in another comment, I'm a daily vi user, but that's almost always when it's my only option. And that's been the case for well over a decade now. I just happen to feel more comfortable using sublime text; I always know how to do what I need to do, it's obvious, it's a pleasant experience. But I totally get some people have the same experience with vi/Emacs, and that's cool.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    Lightweight in terms of functionality, not lightweight in terms of memory. Excellent combination.
    - oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
      One out of two ain't bad. At least they've left the one which will get 'fixed' if they just do nothing for long enough.
bitwize 9y ago
Oh, geez, cowboy up. Nontechnical secretaries learned how to use Multics Emacs back in the 70s and extend it using Lisp. Now you're telling me we can't expect professional programmers to learn it or vim?
- oneeyedpigeon 9y ago
  If the return on investment justifies it, of course learn vi/Emacs. I use vi myself on a daily basis, but you must admit that not every professional programmer does. For those that don't, atom might be another option.

yodsanklai 9y ago

> we already have Emacs/Vim, with their million of extensions My experience is that Vim is hard to use when you start to add too many extensions. There are just too many shortcuts to remember, plugins may interact in unexpected ways, and things like contextual information don't look as nice as they could. It just feels very 'hacky' to try to use it as an IDE. I prefer to use more recent editors (first Sublime, but I'm sold to VSCode now) that are better suited to modern display and usages. I still use vim mode but I'm not even sure I'm really more productive with it. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't focus on just using mac os default binding.

tomelders 9y ago
I've never gotten into Vim, but a friend said something that piqued my interest. Editing text is boring. Programming is fun. Vim makes text editing like programming.
- howlgram 9y ago
  I'm learning vim and I agree, even if there's no productivity gain (duh I'm new to it) it makes my work way more fun (I do have a contrived concept of fun though).