3 ms·

Poor bats. They also get their lungs exploded by the pressure differences created near wind turbines: https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2016/09/27/wind-turbines-a

by mwerd 9y ago

Poor bats. They also get their lungs exploded by the pressure differences created near wind turbines: https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2016/09/27/wind-turbines-are-causing-bats-lungs-to-explode/ https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2016/09/27/wind-turbines-are...

Retric 9y ago
Meh, a 5 Mega Watt wind turbine kills less wildlife than the average outdoor cat.
- SeanDav 9y ago
  > "Meh, a 5 Mega Watt wind turbine kills less wildlife than the average outdoor cat." Do you have some sort of data to back this up?
  - JadeNB 9y ago
    I imagine that Retric (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228800) is referring to stories like https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdoor-cats-kill-between-14-billion-and-37-billion-birds-a-year-study-says/2013/01/31/2504f744-6bbe-11e2-ada0-5ca5fa7ebe79_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdo... and https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/opinion/sunday/the-evil-of-the-outdoor-cat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/opinion/sunday/the-evil-o... (DDG results for "outdoor cats wildlife death"), compared to, say, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-w... (DDG result for "wind turbine wildlife death"). This is likely unpopular (especially with cat people like me), but I'm not sure what's callous about it—unless you mean the "meh" part, in which case I'm not sure how backing it up with data makes it any less callous.
    - Retric 9y ago
      That's where the comparison comes from, however it's more that these articles are linking to harm without putting it into any perspective. If we replaced all electricity generation with wind farms you would kill fewer birds from pollution than the existing power plants directly kill. There are 10+ billion birds in the US and a smaller but very large number of bats and well over 1 billion of them die every year. Talking about hundreds of bird/bat deaths in that context is almost meaningless. PS: A fungus on the other hand is decimating bat populations and represents a real threat. However the actual threat is not exactly making the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nose_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nose_syndrome
- trhway 9y ago
  turbines and cats put different selective pressure on the prey population - cats kill weak, ill, etc. thus improving the overall quality of the population where is turbine kills are probably spread uniformly and even may be skewed toward healthy active animals.
  - reportingsjr 9y ago
    How did you come to this conclusion? This is so unbelievable wrong I don't even know where to begin. Cats do not just kill weak animals. They kill strong and healthy animals at an alarming rate. Cats have been responsible for at least 33 island animal extinctions in recent/recorded times [0]. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
    - trhway 9y ago
      There are 10B birds born per year in the US. In Nature pretty much everything is a food for the next level in the food chain, and there is no family&friends funerals. The more weak/ill/old - the higher probability to become predator's dinner. We don't have dead old birds littering the streets of cities. Somebody takes care about it. And as you see from your own link cats mostly eat smalls mammals. Around humans it is mice and rats mostly. Rats do enjoy bird eggs and there is no protection here, until of course somebody takes care about the rats, like for example cats do. As result cats do positive service to the birds population. The population which somehow manages to survive the urban and agricultural development - the main dangers for the wildlife causing population decimation and extinctions. And island extinctions, really? So the cats brought by humans should have just committed suicide by starving themselves? Of course things can easily go wrong in any small system when the system gets severe kick from outside. And humans do just that to various eco-systems. How many species on various islands got extinct once humans reached those islands?
      - Retric 9y ago
        That's an overly simplified model to the point of incorrectness. A Lion wants a sick / old / or young water buffalo because it's less dangerous. However, a house cat does not really care about a mouse or bird. If you look at mice reproduction they mostly get eaten before adulthood. Young healthy animals are often preferred prey because they are easy targets. Finally, predators regularly drive species to extinction, which is a large part of why the vast majority of species to ever exist are not currently around. TLDR; Cat's need 8 adult mice a day if that's all they are eating and they really can't afford to just look for sick animals. They easily hunt healthy adult birds, some baby rabbits, or other small animals.

by mwerd 9y ago

Retric 9y ago

Meh, a 5 Mega Watt wind turbine kills less wildlife than the average outdoor cat.

SeanDav 9y ago
> "Meh, a 5 Mega Watt wind turbine kills less wildlife than the average outdoor cat." Do you have some sort of data to back this up?
- JadeNB 9y ago
  I imagine that Retric (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228800) is referring to stories like https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdoor-cats-kill-between-14-billion-and-37-billion-birds-a-year-study-says/2013/01/31/2504f744-6bbe-11e2-ada0-5ca5fa7ebe79_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/outdo... and https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/opinion/sunday/the-evil-of-the-outdoor-cat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/opinion/sunday/the-evil-o... (DDG results for "outdoor cats wildlife death"), compared to, say, http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-w... (DDG result for "wind turbine wildlife death"). This is likely unpopular (especially with cat people like me), but I'm not sure what's callous about it—unless you mean the "meh" part, in which case I'm not sure how backing it up with data makes it any less callous.
  - Retric 9y ago
    That's where the comparison comes from, however it's more that these articles are linking to harm without putting it into any perspective. If we replaced all electricity generation with wind farms you would kill fewer birds from pollution than the existing power plants directly kill. There are 10+ billion birds in the US and a smaller but very large number of bats and well over 1 billion of them die every year. Talking about hundreds of bird/bat deaths in that context is almost meaningless. PS: A fungus on the other hand is decimating bat populations and represents a real threat. However the actual threat is not exactly making the news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nose_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-nose_syndrome
trhway 9y ago
turbines and cats put different selective pressure on the prey population - cats kill weak, ill, etc. thus improving the overall quality of the population where is turbine kills are probably spread uniformly and even may be skewed toward healthy active animals.
- reportingsjr 9y ago
  How did you come to this conclusion? This is so unbelievable wrong I don't even know where to begin. Cats do not just kill weak animals. They kill strong and healthy animals at an alarming rate. Cats have been responsible for at least 33 island animal extinctions in recent/recorded times [0]. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
  - trhway 9y ago
    There are 10B birds born per year in the US. In Nature pretty much everything is a food for the next level in the food chain, and there is no family&friends funerals. The more weak/ill/old - the higher probability to become predator's dinner. We don't have dead old birds littering the streets of cities. Somebody takes care about it. And as you see from your own link cats mostly eat smalls mammals. Around humans it is mice and rats mostly. Rats do enjoy bird eggs and there is no protection here, until of course somebody takes care about the rats, like for example cats do. As result cats do positive service to the birds population. The population which somehow manages to survive the urban and agricultural development - the main dangers for the wildlife causing population decimation and extinctions. And island extinctions, really? So the cats brought by humans should have just committed suicide by starving themselves? Of course things can easily go wrong in any small system when the system gets severe kick from outside. And humans do just that to various eco-systems. How many species on various islands got extinct once humans reached those islands?
    - Retric 9y ago
      That's an overly simplified model to the point of incorrectness. A Lion wants a sick / old / or young water buffalo because it's less dangerous. However, a house cat does not really care about a mouse or bird. If you look at mice reproduction they mostly get eaten before adulthood. Young healthy animals are often preferred prey because they are easy targets. Finally, predators regularly drive species to extinction, which is a large part of why the vast majority of species to ever exist are not currently around. TLDR; Cat's need 8 adult mice a day if that's all they are eating and they really can't afford to just look for sick animals. They easily hunt healthy adult birds, some baby rabbits, or other small animals.