9 ms·

Why the World Trade Center Buildings Collapsed: A Fire Chief’s Assessment

17 points by da02 9y ago

pseingatl 9y ago
The real question is why the third building, WTC 7, went down. It wasn't hit by an airplane and the fires were trivial compared to other buildings. I'm not suggesting conspiracy or aliens, just that WTC 7 should not have fallen given the damage it suffered.
- rapsey 9y ago
  That and about a 100 other unexplained questions. Like how it's impossible for commercial aircraft to fly at that altitude with that speed. Like how it's impossible for any passenger to make a phone call during flight, yet there were quite a few making phone calls home when they were suppose to be flying. How the pentagon damage pictures make zero sense. How there not being any security footage for one of the most secure buildings in the world.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    I'm sure you have some very credible sources for those claims?
  - 6nf 9y ago
    Why would it be impossible for passengers to make calls during the flight? I've made calls from a 747, it's definitely possible?
    - rapsey 9y ago
      You can not make cell phone calls during flight.
      - 6nf 9y ago
        I've done it. It's possible. Why do you think it's not?
        rapsey 9y ago
        http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/14/tech/mobile/phones-in-flight/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/14/tech/mobile/phones-in-flig... > The maximum distance at which a phone can still make calls and send texts varies depending on the type of tower and transmitter, but an airplane would have to be no more than 10,000 feet in the air for any cell phones on board to still have a signal, If the plane offered cell connectivity itself it's another matter entirely. Those planes sure did not.
        6nf 9y ago
        The planes were lower than 10,000 feet at the time of the phone calls
        rapsey 9y ago
        Were they? What is your source on that? People who checked the info found the opposite. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_911_47.htm https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopo...
      - KozmoNau7 9y ago
        Many airlines have repeaters on their planes, allowing people to place cell phone calls and send/receive text messages, usually at inflated prices. So why do you think it's impossible?
        rapsey 9y ago
        Because those flights did not and US airlines in general don't at least not then.
        dogma1138 9y ago
        Not in 2001 tho, I have no beef in this but people forget the times...
        6nf 9y ago
        Yea but clearly these planes were not flying at 30,000 feet so regular cell tower calls would have worked
        rapsey 9y ago
        Source? Not only is there a height limit, there is a speed limit for call handoff between towers. It's pretty low at ~100mph. Way below airplane speed.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        flukus 9y ago
        They seem to work fine on high speed rail.
        dogma1138 9y ago
        Also with much older cellular technology, in 2001 the US mostly used 2G TDMA/CDMA networks with carriers like Verizon still relying on older AMPS systems on the 850mhz band. I'm not entirely sure how that would've worked, even today having a phone call from low altitude is pretty hard jets are pretty decent Faraday cages and the speed is just as much of a problem as the altitude. There is a difference between having the cellphone pining a tower or even managing to get a short data packet from time to time and having an uninterrupted phone call. I don't think there 9/11 was a "conspiracy" I think there was just a lot of random information that amplified to conspiratorial levels.
  - da02 9y ago
    There is also the flight certificate of one of the hijackers found in a Saudi embassy envelope (among other Saudi government connections withheld from the public): https://harpers.org/blog/2017/09/crime-and-punishment/ https://harpers.org/blog/2017/09/crime-and-punishment/ And Mueller's odd behaviour: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/09/10/robert-mueller-obstruct-congresss-911-probe/ http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/09/10/robert-mueller...
- aiyodev 9y ago
  Trivial? The whole building was engulfed in flames.
  - AstralStorm 9y ago
    The real questing is how true flames skipped from WTC 1 & 2 to WTC 7. Probably easy to answer. (Must be highly flammable material and what essentially became thermite driving nearby building temperature high enough to start the fire.)
  - rapsey 9y ago
    How many non-wood buidings collapse after a fire? None except tower 7 that I have heard of.
    - xxxdarrenxxx 9y ago
      Open an oven, but not entirely, just a few inches, the air that is forced out from the oven through the narrow opening will burn your face instantly. Open it entirely, and whilst hot it's still far less heat. My point being, that the streets could act like canals for the heat, concnetrating the heat. Just a guess, perhaps mathematically irrelevant. Fire has many 'exceptions', and can be influenced my many different variables and situations.
      - rapsey 9y ago
        Yes and buildings are made for way bigger tolerances that are feasible. You think a building wide fire was not considered and the effects of the area around it?
  - rapsey 9y ago
    Was it? http://imgur.com/gallery/JQq18Lr http://imgur.com/gallery/JQq18Lr
- germainemalcolm 9y ago
  To add to the confusion the BBC reported WTC 7 had collapsed before it had actually collapsed. A fact an old work colleague's husband used as evidence (to support not paying his TV license) in court. He suggested that the BBC colluded with terrorists. This is the only coverage I could find that isn't the Daily Mail. [https://www.sott.net/article/266268-UK-man-wins-court-case-against-BBC-for-911-cover-up https://www.sott.net/article/266268-UK-man-wins-court-case-a...] And this is the BBCs explanation. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_co...]
  - grecy 9y ago
    > A fact an old work colleague's husband used as evidence (to support not paying his TV license) in court. How did that work out?
    - raihansaputra 9y ago
      Read the first link, it's about the court case.
- 0x4f3759df 9y ago
  pull it clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk
codewritinfool 9y ago
This photo always illustrated a lot for me about WTC 1 & 2 composition: http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix4/wtcTowers-night2.jpg http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix4/wtcTowers-night2.jpg
bmh_ca 9y ago
I summarized the information I have read on this topic in an answer on Skeptics.SO: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/31144/1792 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/31144/1792 To quote a much more authoritative Europhysics article that subsequently came out (and which I since put at the head of my answer): > ... The NIST reports, which attempted to support that unlikely conclusion [that a steel frame building collapsed from a fire], fail to persuade a growing number of architects, engineers, and scientists. Instead, the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition. ...

17 points by da02 9y ago

The real question is why the third building, WTC 7, went down. It wasn't hit by an airplane and the fires were trivial compared to other buildings. I'm not suggesting conspiracy or aliens, just that WTC 7 should not have fallen given the damage it suffered.

rapsey 9y ago
That and about a 100 other unexplained questions. Like how it's impossible for commercial aircraft to fly at that altitude with that speed. Like how it's impossible for any passenger to make a phone call during flight, yet there were quite a few making phone calls home when they were suppose to be flying. How the pentagon damage pictures make zero sense. How there not being any security footage for one of the most secure buildings in the world.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  I'm sure you have some very credible sources for those claims?
- 6nf 9y ago
  Why would it be impossible for passengers to make calls during the flight? I've made calls from a 747, it's definitely possible?
  - rapsey 9y ago
    You can not make cell phone calls during flight.
    - 6nf 9y ago
      I've done it. It's possible. Why do you think it's not?
      - rapsey 9y ago
        http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/14/tech/mobile/phones-in-flight/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/14/tech/mobile/phones-in-flig... > The maximum distance at which a phone can still make calls and send texts varies depending on the type of tower and transmitter, but an airplane would have to be no more than 10,000 feet in the air for any cell phones on board to still have a signal, If the plane offered cell connectivity itself it's another matter entirely. Those planes sure did not.
        6nf 9y ago
        The planes were lower than 10,000 feet at the time of the phone calls
        rapsey 9y ago
        Were they? What is your source on that? People who checked the info found the opposite. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_911_47.htm https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopo...
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      Many airlines have repeaters on their planes, allowing people to place cell phone calls and send/receive text messages, usually at inflated prices. So why do you think it's impossible?
      - rapsey 9y ago
        Because those flights did not and US airlines in general don't at least not then.
      - dogma1138 9y ago
        Not in 2001 tho, I have no beef in this but people forget the times...
        6nf 9y ago
        Yea but clearly these planes were not flying at 30,000 feet so regular cell tower calls would have worked
        rapsey 9y ago
        Source? Not only is there a height limit, there is a speed limit for call handoff between towers. It's pretty low at ~100mph. Way below airplane speed.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        flukus 9y ago
        They seem to work fine on high speed rail.
        dogma1138 9y ago
        Also with much older cellular technology, in 2001 the US mostly used 2G TDMA/CDMA networks with carriers like Verizon still relying on older AMPS systems on the 850mhz band. I'm not entirely sure how that would've worked, even today having a phone call from low altitude is pretty hard jets are pretty decent Faraday cages and the speed is just as much of a problem as the altitude. There is a difference between having the cellphone pining a tower or even managing to get a short data packet from time to time and having an uninterrupted phone call. I don't think there 9/11 was a "conspiracy" I think there was just a lot of random information that amplified to conspiratorial levels.
- da02 9y ago
  There is also the flight certificate of one of the hijackers found in a Saudi embassy envelope (among other Saudi government connections withheld from the public): https://harpers.org/blog/2017/09/crime-and-punishment/ https://harpers.org/blog/2017/09/crime-and-punishment/ And Mueller's odd behaviour: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/09/10/robert-mueller-obstruct-congresss-911-probe/ http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2017/09/10/robert-mueller...
aiyodev 9y ago
Trivial? The whole building was engulfed in flames.
- AstralStorm 9y ago
  The real questing is how true flames skipped from WTC 1 & 2 to WTC 7. Probably easy to answer. (Must be highly flammable material and what essentially became thermite driving nearby building temperature high enough to start the fire.)
- rapsey 9y ago
  How many non-wood buidings collapse after a fire? None except tower 7 that I have heard of.
  - xxxdarrenxxx 9y ago
    Open an oven, but not entirely, just a few inches, the air that is forced out from the oven through the narrow opening will burn your face instantly. Open it entirely, and whilst hot it's still far less heat. My point being, that the streets could act like canals for the heat, concnetrating the heat. Just a guess, perhaps mathematically irrelevant. Fire has many 'exceptions', and can be influenced my many different variables and situations.
    - rapsey 9y ago
      Yes and buildings are made for way bigger tolerances that are feasible. You think a building wide fire was not considered and the effects of the area around it?
- rapsey 9y ago
  Was it? http://imgur.com/gallery/JQq18Lr http://imgur.com/gallery/JQq18Lr
germainemalcolm 9y ago
To add to the confusion the BBC reported WTC 7 had collapsed before it had actually collapsed. A fact an old work colleague's husband used as evidence (to support not paying his TV license) in court. He suggested that the BBC colluded with terrorists. This is the only coverage I could find that isn't the Daily Mail. [https://www.sott.net/article/266268-UK-man-wins-court-case-against-BBC-for-911-cover-up https://www.sott.net/article/266268-UK-man-wins-court-case-a...] And this is the BBCs explanation. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_conspiracy.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007/02/part_of_the_co...]
- grecy 9y ago
  > A fact an old work colleague's husband used as evidence (to support not paying his TV license) in court. How did that work out?
  - raihansaputra 9y ago
    Read the first link, it's about the court case.
0x4f3759df 9y ago
pull it clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jPzAakHPpk

codewritinfool 9y ago

This photo always illustrated a lot for me about WTC 1 & 2 composition: http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix4/wtcTowers-night2.jpg http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix4/wtcTowers-night2.jpg

bmh_ca 9y ago

I summarized the information I have read on this topic in an answer on Skeptics.SO: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/31144/1792 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/31144/1792 To quote a much more authoritative Europhysics article that subsequently came out (and which I since put at the head of my answer): > ... The NIST reports, which attempted to support that unlikely conclusion [that a steel frame building collapsed from a fire], fail to persuade a growing number of architects, engineers, and scientists. Instead, the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition. ...