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> Getting rid of places that fester hatred is like putting out a fire I assumed this was the mental model of those who would suppress "hate speech". Here's the

> Getting rid of places that fester hatred is like putting out a fire I assumed this was the mental model of those who would suppress "hate speech". Here's the problem: if there's a nugget of important truth hidden somewhere in there, something people won't say in public but which is vital, then you're not putting out a fire, you're putting a lid on a boiling pot. You can try to stop the steam from escaping but eventually it'll blow up in your face.

rgossiaux 9y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure being super racist against black people or telling fat people to kill themselves is really an "important truth" though...
- orblivion 9y ago
  I agree. I see those as symptoms (assuming there's anything there at all). The important question is whether there's something driving them to that state.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    Well, whatever the initial cause is, clearly having a platform is one of the bigger drivers, and removing it seems like the appropriate response
  - fatbird 9y ago
    It might be that we miss some key insight into Ebola or virology by trying as hard as possible to contain and eradicate it. Still, we restrict ourselves to studying it in a lab, rather than treating an outbreak as the place to find a possible nugget of truth. It's one of the most frustrating parts of discussions about this topic for me: we're constantly supposed to weigh the value of hypothetical goods and somehow judge our commitment to freedom of expression by how far we're willing to go in defense of possible outcomes we can't even clearly articulate.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > The important question is whether there's something driving them to that state. No. There are millions (probably even tens of millions) of people who share circumstances with these racist/homophobic/misogynistic asshats and who never fall into these behaviours. You cannot excuse any of the *isms with economic anxiety or similar nonsense.
wu-ikkyu 9y ago
Dr. King thought the same thing: >We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured. -Dr. King, Letter From a Birmingham Jail
- justforFranz 9y ago
  The bringing-out is itself a kind of context. That kind of critical/analytical context is far, far different from simply setting up a forum in a huge social media site where impressionable people sometimes congregate. It's like the difference between a biology lab where students perform dissection and a dirty, stinking, public restroom where people graffiti on the wall and poop in the urinals.
- phjesusthatguy3 9y ago
  "I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all it ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light injustice must be exposed with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion, before it can be cured." https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
- aptwebapps 9y ago
  Sibling comment has the context and, really, these are two different things. Letting a nasty forum stay open is not at all the same as protesting segregation.
alexryan 9y ago
"All objectionable behavior is a tragic expression of an unmet need". ~Marshall Rosenberg The impulse to silence people whose speech is objectionable is understandable. We have all felt it. But it is profoundly misguided. Zero-sum solutions are inherently unstable.

rgossiaux 9y ago

Yeah, I'm not sure being super racist against black people or telling fat people to kill themselves is really an "important truth" though...

orblivion 9y ago
I agree. I see those as symptoms (assuming there's anything there at all). The important question is whether there's something driving them to that state.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Well, whatever the initial cause is, clearly having a platform is one of the bigger drivers, and removing it seems like the appropriate response
- fatbird 9y ago
  It might be that we miss some key insight into Ebola or virology by trying as hard as possible to contain and eradicate it. Still, we restrict ourselves to studying it in a lab, rather than treating an outbreak as the place to find a possible nugget of truth. It's one of the most frustrating parts of discussions about this topic for me: we're constantly supposed to weigh the value of hypothetical goods and somehow judge our commitment to freedom of expression by how far we're willing to go in defense of possible outcomes we can't even clearly articulate.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > The important question is whether there's something driving them to that state. No. There are millions (probably even tens of millions) of people who share circumstances with these racist/homophobic/misogynistic asshats and who never fall into these behaviours. You cannot excuse any of the *isms with economic anxiety or similar nonsense.

wu-ikkyu 9y ago

Dr. King thought the same thing: >We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured. -Dr. King, Letter From a Birmingham Jail

justforFranz 9y ago
The bringing-out is itself a kind of context. That kind of critical/analytical context is far, far different from simply setting up a forum in a huge social media site where impressionable people sometimes congregate. It's like the difference between a biology lab where students perform dissection and a dirty, stinking, public restroom where people graffiti on the wall and poop in the urinals.
phjesusthatguy3 9y ago
"I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all it ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light injustice must be exposed with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion, before it can be cured." https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
aptwebapps 9y ago
Sibling comment has the context and, really, these are two different things. Letting a nasty forum stay open is not at all the same as protesting segregation.

alexryan 9y ago

"All objectionable behavior is a tragic expression of an unmet need". ~Marshall Rosenberg The impulse to silence people whose speech is objectionable is understandable. We have all felt it. But it is profoundly misguided. Zero-sum solutions are inherently unstable.