4 ms·

The surest way to get a fat person to change his evil ways is by public shaming and cruelty. When has that tactic ever failed?

by sidlls 9y ago

imaginenore 9y ago
That's the thing, you're fighting the straw man, "evil ways" is your invention. Wrong and unhealthy and costly ways is what I'd say. I'd say that tactic (criticisms and making fun of) worked in many instances.
- sidlls 9y ago
  Except fat people already know all those things. And also most of what this is about isn't that level of neutral, but at least not hurtful criticism. Most of it is of the "ugh let's all point and laugh at the gross fatty" variety.
  - imaginenore 9y ago
    Seriously, go to archive.org and read what was actually posted on FPH. Pretty much none if it was "ugh let's all point and laugh at the gross fatty", because that's not funny at all. It was all about making fun of the "culture" and the dumb stuff the fat people bring on themselves. And so what if fat people know about it? Smokers also know smoking is bad, yet the society does much worse to them - we post pics of sick people and warnings on the product they buy. Do you think the smokers are oppressed and should be another SJW-protected group? Or do you think we should post late stage diabetes pics on cheese? And why shouldn't we make fun of groups of people, when it is funny? This thought policing has become ridiculous.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  But, in fact, fat people are constantly made to feel bad, without any evident slimming as a result.
  - taneq 9y ago
    Only, it would seem, in Western culture. In places like Japan, fat shaming is absolutely brutal and is a significant part of the reason that they have less obesity. (Source: Conversations with Japanese people, in Japan, about why Westerners were so fat.)
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      I've spent time in Japan too (I majored in Japanese and I lived there for a year), and, while Japanese people don't have very much tact about body image issues, I find self-reports like that very unconvincing. Japanese people will also wax poetic about the uniqueness of their having four seasons, which would probably be news to most of my fellow New Englanders. There are a lot of other things different about Japan (most people walk more and drive rather infrequently, food portions are smaller, the actual foods eaten are not the same, for instance) than just how tactless or not Japanese people are about weight. I bet if you looked at Nikkei with Japanese immigrant parents you would see rates of obesity that looked much more similar to American ones than Japanese ones too. In addition, although it's a slower creep, Japan is seeing average BMIs go up.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
      I know "correlation/causation" feels like a dead horse, but I would want far better evidence that there's an actual link and not just confounding factors (ex. diet).
Consultant32452 9y ago
I dunno, how do you recommend we treat other people with socially undesirable behavior like neo-Nazis? Is public shaming acceptable in that case? If we ban neo-Nazi speech because it's dangerous, how can we not ban fat acceptance which is demonstrably deadly?
- Pulcinella 9y ago
  Can you demonstrate that "fat acceptance" is deadly? I certainly have seen proof that Nazism is.
  - tosser350 9y ago
    It apparently costs the global economy around 2 trillion a year due to various causes http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/fat-obesity-costs-mckinsey-report/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/fat-obesity-cos...
    - grzm 9y ago
      "fat acceptance is deadly" ≠ "obesity has costs to the economy" Edit to add: 'yjftsjthsd-h points out that this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224303) In this entire thread a lot of people are unknowingly or willfully talking past each other. That's the tough part about heated issues like this. Actually taking the time to break down and listen to each other to understand where we're coming from first—even if we don't agree with the conclusions on the other side—is fundamental to us having a useful, constructive discussion.
      - tosser350 9y ago
        Obesity is a negative for both the individual and society. The fat acceptance movement is terrible because being fat isn't some sort of permanent, genetic condition that's out of people's control. You control what you put in your mouth and how much exercise you get, it's a choice. Should we have an ignorance acceptance movement, where we don't push people to educate themselves? That's a choice as well.

The surest way to get a fat person to change his evil ways is by public shaming and cruelty. When has that tactic ever failed?

by sidlls 9y ago

The surest way to get a fat person to change his evil ways is by public shaming and cruelty. When has that tactic ever failed?

imaginenore 9y ago

That's the thing, you're fighting the straw man, "evil ways" is your invention. Wrong and unhealthy and costly ways is what I'd say. I'd say that tactic (criticisms and making fun of) worked in many instances.

sidlls 9y ago
Except fat people already know all those things. And also most of what this is about isn't that level of neutral, but at least not hurtful criticism. Most of it is of the "ugh let's all point and laugh at the gross fatty" variety.
- imaginenore 9y ago
  Seriously, go to archive.org and read what was actually posted on FPH. Pretty much none if it was "ugh let's all point and laugh at the gross fatty", because that's not funny at all. It was all about making fun of the "culture" and the dumb stuff the fat people bring on themselves. And so what if fat people know about it? Smokers also know smoking is bad, yet the society does much worse to them - we post pics of sick people and warnings on the product they buy. Do you think the smokers are oppressed and should be another SJW-protected group? Or do you think we should post late stage diabetes pics on cheese? And why shouldn't we make fun of groups of people, when it is funny? This thought policing has become ridiculous.
emodendroket 9y ago
But, in fact, fat people are constantly made to feel bad, without any evident slimming as a result.
- taneq 9y ago
  Only, it would seem, in Western culture. In places like Japan, fat shaming is absolutely brutal and is a significant part of the reason that they have less obesity. (Source: Conversations with Japanese people, in Japan, about why Westerners were so fat.)
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    I've spent time in Japan too (I majored in Japanese and I lived there for a year), and, while Japanese people don't have very much tact about body image issues, I find self-reports like that very unconvincing. Japanese people will also wax poetic about the uniqueness of their having four seasons, which would probably be news to most of my fellow New Englanders. There are a lot of other things different about Japan (most people walk more and drive rather infrequently, food portions are smaller, the actual foods eaten are not the same, for instance) than just how tactless or not Japanese people are about weight. I bet if you looked at Nikkei with Japanese immigrant parents you would see rates of obesity that looked much more similar to American ones than Japanese ones too. In addition, although it's a slower creep, Japan is seeing average BMIs go up.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago
    I know "correlation/causation" feels like a dead horse, but I would want far better evidence that there's an actual link and not just confounding factors (ex. diet).

Consultant32452 9y ago

I dunno, how do you recommend we treat other people with socially undesirable behavior like neo-Nazis? Is public shaming acceptable in that case? If we ban neo-Nazi speech because it's dangerous, how can we not ban fat acceptance which is demonstrably deadly?

Pulcinella 9y ago
Can you demonstrate that "fat acceptance" is deadly? I certainly have seen proof that Nazism is.
- tosser350 9y ago
  It apparently costs the global economy around 2 trillion a year due to various causes http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/fat-obesity-costs-mckinsey-report/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/fat-obesity-cos...
  - grzm 9y ago
    "fat acceptance is deadly" ≠ "obesity has costs to the economy" Edit to add: 'yjftsjthsd-h points out that this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224303) In this entire thread a lot of people are unknowingly or willfully talking past each other. That's the tough part about heated issues like this. Actually taking the time to break down and listen to each other to understand where we're coming from first—even if we don't agree with the conclusions on the other side—is fundamental to us having a useful, constructive discussion.
    - tosser350 9y ago
      Obesity is a negative for both the individual and society. The fat acceptance movement is terrible because being fat isn't some sort of permanent, genetic condition that's out of people's control. You control what you put in your mouth and how much exercise you get, it's a choice. Should we have an ignorance acceptance movement, where we don't push people to educate themselves? That's a choice as well.