17 ms·

I downloaded an app and was part of the Cajun Navy

324 points by rodrigocoelho 9y ago

revicon 9y ago
I heard about Zello through this article a couple days ago. I installed it and to be honest it's been kind of interesting to listen to, reminded me of the old days when I wold listen in on my CB radio to the random chatter. I'm not sure how useful it is for actual communication though, it seems like SMS or similar apps are more efficient and let me know I didn't miss anything if I'm away from my phone for a while.
- briffle 9y ago
  This tool is more useful for immediate communication with 'somebody' not 2 way communication. I listened in to a channel with Irma closing in, and People were asking questions like "I'm on the road, and not going to make it, what is the nearest evacuation center to where I am now?" or important messages were relayed like "We are working at store X, in city Y, and we just got another truck with more bottled water"
subway 9y ago
It's really depressing that we've largely abandoned the art of decentralized radio communication. I think Amateur radio has seen a minor resurgence in recent years, but it seems like more and more traffic that traditionally would have been passed by decentralized amateur operators now relies on centralized networks. Obviously Zello and its ilk bring significant benefits with them, but I worry about the impact they have on proliferation of radio skills.
- okreallywtf 9y ago
  This seems like an opportunity for the amateur radio community to remind the world of its existence and to do some outreach that could eventually save lives. I have an emergency radio (1 way) that I've never used but if all other lines of communication were to go down I would pull it out and crank it up (literally, its a crank radio). It seems uncertain whether these kinds of weather events are going to become more common but in general it does seem that climate change is likely to cause more extreme weather conditions worldwide (some of the wildfires we've seen could have a similar isolating need-rescue situations), disaster preparedness might become much more of a way of life than it has been for us in a while.
- sverige 9y ago
  Amateur radio is still alive, but there are not nearly as many active hams as there were 30 years ago when I first got my license. A much smaller percentage of hams know how to pass traffic in a systematic way these days, and not as many are proficient with Morse code, which is arguably the most efficient use of spectrum in disaster scenarios. Hams did help during Harvey and are helping during Irma, but it doesn't get as much press as it used to. I also think that there has been sort of a systematic degradation in neighborhood relations that has an impact on disaster response. My neighborhood has mostly middle aged and older people in it now, most of us know each other, but many neighborhoods have become much more transient in the last generation or so and ties are not as strong. My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to consider picking up the radio hobby. It has some real old school hacker opportunities for everyone. And, it has never been easier to obtain an amateur license. The Morse code requirements have been dropped. The technical part of the test is not that difficult for anyone with any understanding of electronics. The regulations are somewhat obscure, but not difficult to grasp. We need an infusion of new amateur radio operators. The old guys (like my dad) are disappearing fast.
  - uabstraction 9y ago
    > My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to consider picking up the radio hobby. You hit the nail on the head here. I've been fooling around with computer programming for over a decade now (since I was in Jr. High), and Arduinos and Raspberry Pis as long as they have been available, but I never put much thought into ham radio. Most of the makers I know go straight to pre-made WiFi or Bluetooth modules when the time comes to make their projects work wirelessly - accepting their limitations while overlooking much simpler solutions which can be achieved though RF and a little bit of know-how. In hindsight, I wish I had learned about ham radio much sooner. There is a massive schism between the ham community and the hacker community which doesn't make much sense to me. They are both very much interested in finding novel solutions to problems and sharing them with the community, doing more with less, placing value in decentralization, and have a similar sort of independent counter-culture and grounded respect for technology. I think it is simply a problem of awareness. Before I got into ham radio, I assumed that the FCC simply allocated a tiny bucket of useless spectrum for amateur use, and that it's practical utility was quite limited. I didn't know that amateurs had access to bands all the way across the spectrum, that they are allowed to transmit at 1500 watts, that they could talk directly to the ISS, or make use of satellite repeaters and reach across oceans with a walkie talkie. On the HF bands, ham radio makes international communication possible without any middleman, subscription fee, or infrastructure. It is also a godsend for people launching weather balloons, allows you to build some incredibly badass RC craft, and can serve as the backbone of all sorts of other fascinating endeavors. I think the schism is generational. The maker movement is composed largely of kids who grew up with the Internet, and really took off with social media and web 2.0, while the ham community is composed of a large body of people who came of age and mastered their craft before computers became ubiquitous. For better or worse, a lot of them seem to remain set in their ways. Many ham websites, including those of active clubs, brick and mortar stores, and repeater networks, look like they're straight out of the 90s, and social media outreach remains quite limited. I suppose the fundamentals of radio, much like physics or mathematics, hasn't changed much in the past 50 years, but these communities unfortunately seem to be living in different worlds. I think that it is essential for us to bridge the gap. The alliance of the hams and the makers really stands to bring positive outcomes for both communities.
- redog 9y ago
  LTE is radio. and WTF is decentralized radio? I don't think you can run a transmitter on the blockchain.
  - nocha 9y ago
    And what happens when a hurricane takes down the cell tower? Or the power is out for days and the cell tower's backup batteries run dry? Decentralised radio is essentially ham radio. Individual units talking directly to each other, without relying on a single point of failure (the cell company). As others have said above, ham radio is a godsend in some situations. If you use the right bands, you can talk halfway around the world while running off batteries and using a wire thrown over a tree for an antenna.
    - redog 9y ago
      > you can talk halfway around the world while running off batteries and using a wire thrown over a tree for an antenna. And then what when everyone talks. Isn't it already regulated for this same reasoning? Seems to me a combination of open protocols and mesh networking would be better than government restricted ham.
      - zeckalpha 9y ago
        Much mesh networking innovation is happening in ham communities. Go check it out.
    - driverdan 9y ago
      Most mobile radio operators rely on repeaters which is a form of centralization. You can communicate without them but need to be closer or have the right equipment ahead of time.
  - XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
    decentralized != blockchain.
- hamthrowaway 9y ago
  I tried getting into Amateur Radio. I'm mid-30s, and I really liked the idea of ham radio, ever since I was a child. So I went ahead and spent 8 months on it. I got my Extra license (the highest level), learned all about Ares, got into nets.. all of it. I bought an Icom 7300 (really great radio). I even started learning Morse. Why did I quit? I couldn't deal with some of the hmm,"interesting" people on ham radio! I have a slight accent, enough to mark me out as a non-native born American (I'm a citizen now though), and I kept meeting people who were downright nasty to me. I tried focusing on the positive, but after a few months and one particularly unpleasant contact, my wife asked me why I was wasting my time trying to talk to people who clearly didn't want me around. She was right, and I quit. Yes, I met plenty of really nice hams, but every week that I was on the air, I would be bound to find someone calling me names. Sure, you can just "spin the dial", but for those who don't know, ham radio is not anonymous. FCC regulations state that you have to give your call sign every 10 minutes, and you can look up anyone's name and home address from that call sign. That unpleasant contact consisted of a fine citizen telling me that he was going to come over and "kick my ass". Just because he thought I was illegal or something like that. I'm sure he was just bloviating, but hey, I have a wife and kids.. I'm not risking it. I'm still an Extra, but I sold my radios and don't want to get into it anymore.
- Faark 9y ago
  I have no experience with amateur radio. How resilient is it against bad actors? If i'd about to drown i'd probably keep yelling for help, regardless of consequences (for others). How do you handle such cases without some authority like in centralized networks? Switch to a different frequency?
wnissen 9y ago
Why don't we have people doing this dispatch professionally? What are FEMA and the Red Cross doing if not helping coordinate emergency response when the normal channels are overwhelmed? Don't get me wrong, this person, and all those who aid the rescue efforts, is a hero. Don't the people who do this deserve to get paid and have resources for dealing with PTSD? And don't the victims deserve organized, professional response?
- okreallywtf 9y ago
  I'm not sure why you got downvoted, perhaps downvoters would chime in? I get that local organizations deal with some situations better than some large, clumsy bureaucracy but I tend to agree with wnissen, if this continues as trend relying on a patchwork of individuals (heroic as they may be). I wish there was a non-military or less-military domestic version of this, I've considered joining the national guard for this reason but I'm don't trust that I wouldn't end up fighting and dying in a pointless war. If there was another volunteer force that was devoted to humanitarian issues and search and rescue I would be all for it.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Isn't that about the Red Cross? (which has its own issues around funding efficiency) Or the Civil Air Patrol? Or (less military, not non-military) US Coast Guard?
    - briandear 9y ago
      The Red Cross doesn’t do rescues. They come in after the fact generally to both help people and plan their next fundraiser. It still takes time to deploy people.
  - justin66 9y ago
    > I wish there was a non-military or less-military domestic version of this, I've considered joining the national guard for this reason but I'm don't trust that I wouldn't end up fighting and dying in a pointless war. If there was another volunteer force that was devoted to humanitarian issues and search and rescue I would be all for it. You're basically describing the Coast Guard. I believe they do hire reservists.
deleted 9y ago
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aaroninsf 9y ago
The part of this story I don't understand myself, is how so many people had bandwidth to download and use an app, in an environment in which I would have assumed both power and the cell network–especially data–were limping or just down. The implicit question is, what percentage of people in the disaster zone did, and did not, have a channel out through this app? Does this story represent the 10% case or the 50% case or...? Not sure where to find the answer...
- danielvf 9y ago
  A lot of times, people using the app were freinds of those being rescued, and were in touch with them over SMS or phone. However, many were using the app, and it's a great showing on the part of the Houston cell network.
- imglorp 9y ago
  Some of the cellphone network can operate with no wired power or network. Towers can have p2p microwave links and battery backups. That doesn't really answer your question about how/if/how-long it worked this week. http://ups-battery-backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php http://ups-battery-backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-services/cell-tower-backhaul.html https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-services/c...
  - jpindar 9y ago
    Some of the ones near me even have small wind generators.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      These probably were super-effective during this occasion
- sixothree 9y ago
  Right. I know of people who lost power and cell phone coverage.
- 9y ago
beamatronic 9y ago
We need ham radio hardware with an iOS interface
- tjohns 9y ago
  It exists. Off the top of my head, Flex SDR radios can be fully network controlled via iOS: http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signature-series/smartsdr-for-ios/ http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signatur... There's other options as well. But I'm not sure how that would help here?
  - BHSPitMonkey 9y ago
    Yeah, it wouldn't really help communicate with the victims in an emergency like this because virtually none of the general public is going to have (and know how to use) specialized equipment that they only need in extremely rare situations. Perhaps equipment could be distributed to the volunteers, but it seems like many of the boat owners already had basic radio capabilities anyway.
- joshdance 9y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. Some way to make radio easier to use etc.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Damogran6 9y ago
Holy Crap that's a tough read.
lukejduncan 9y ago
When Katrina hit, I remember finding the blog of a guy who had a company doing custom websites in New Orleans on the front page of hacker news. He stayed there through the storm and after, and I remember sitting in the undergraduate library at Wayne State University fighting back tears reading it. This had a similar affect on me. Very powerful story. It wasn't clear to me, but I'd love to learn more about the tech powering this app. Is it open source? Is it somehow decentralized?
- joshdance 9y ago
  I remember the same blog. He talked about fuel running out, posted pictures from the high rise etc?
  - lukejduncan 9y ago
    That sounds right
- acchow 9y ago
  Link please?
- harryh 9y ago
  You might be thinking about https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/ https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/ ?
  - justajot 9y ago
    The Interdictor // this is the one that I remember. I was glued to this guy's post during that time ... was fascinating.
  - iamrecursion 9y ago
    This is a haunting read, but gripping at the same time. Thank you for posting it.
- structural 9y ago
  What a blast from the past. Katrina hit during my senior year of undergrad and I went and refreshed that very same blog each hour for a day or two following along with events as they happened, as he saw them. Was an amazing perspective at the time.
doodlebugging 9y ago
We used Zello when we were down there with a boat. We are just regular people, not part of anyone's navy, just a few guys with a boat that were part of a much larger civilian response to this disaster. About the Cajun Navy - There were so many people responding to this disaster wanting to help with their time and boats that many times we found ourselves staging to launch but ultimately unable to get in the water because the neighborhood or area we were planning to search only needed 15-20 boats and two or three times that many boats staged for the task. That means dozens of trucks pulling every kind of floating contraption lined up on relatively dry Houston streets and roads and waited in line hoping to be able to take off into the floods and bring people out who needed assistance. When the authorities determined that enough boats had launched for that area, everyone else had to find somewhere else to go. Massive resources were wasted with boats lined up in one spot that could've been actively searching somewhere else. We ran into a couple of guys from the east coast following Zello Cajun Navy reports who at great expense, drove out to help and had not been able to participate for two days because they were trying to stage in spots where the Cajun Navy was being called up. Once the call went out to the Cajun Navy, boats flooded in from all over and you were nearly guaranteed to have more than you needed. In Orange, we ran into a Texas-based rescue outfit, not the Texas Navy but some group who dressed in military duds. We explained that we were heading into one of the neighborhoods along the Sabine to check a report and asked whether they had already checked it or knew anything about it. They hadn't heard that report or checked that area so we were cleared to go in and the leader of the group asked how we heard about the people needing help. When told that we heard it over Zello, he commented to the effect that the Cajun Navy and Zello was kicking their asses in mustering people and boats. Fun stuff but the reality of the Cajun Navy effort from our standpoint was that a lot of people wasted a lot of time following their channels and maybe better coordination with other groups would've made a smoother effort. About the Cajun Navy channels on Zello and Zello itself - Over time the effort evolved into one where each affected area had a dedicated channel to direct boaters to those who most needed assistance. This was not true at the start when the Houston channel had reports from all over the Houston area and eventually Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange and Vidor too. It was tough at first to determine where the person filing the report was located although there was a website we used to guide us that was actively accumulating requests for rescue and pinning them on an active map. This map evolved to eventually drop many of the requests that were determined to be expired due to rescue already happening or floods receding, etc. We chased reports from that map in the areas that we worked and several times found ourselves following an old report that had not been updated. Obviously, the solution to that is to have boaters radio in and update as they visit addresses. Once the large collection of initial reports from those who had been rescued were tagged or removed the site was much more useful. A big drawback of Zello in our opinion is that it is vulnerable to manipulation by anyone with the app installed. We kept hearing reports of shots fired at rescue boaters, attempts to steal rescuers boats, rescuers being attacked by residents, etc. and I feel that they were almost all false. We staged at Addicks Dam at the same time reports were actively coming in on Zello Houston channel about shots being fired and boaters were encouraged at the staging area there and later at Bass Pro Shops in Katy to be aware that some rescuers had been targeted. While at Addicks Dam staging area none of us, all Texans and familiar with weapons and gunshots, heard anything remotely like a gunshot. In the days that we were there none of us heard a gunshot at all though the reports over Zello made it sound like you might be taking your life into your hands if you tried to rescue in some of these neighborhoods. A number of rescue boaters were armed and as far as I know none of them had to fire a single shot. I could be wrong though. Along the same lines Zello was full of reports about imminent dam or levee failures. This got really old as we moved from Houston to Beaumont to Orange and kept hearing the same reports of imminent failure from possibly the same person who kept assuring listeners that the Coast Guard was there with him and informing him that people should leave as failure was imminent. Jeez. Give it a rest. I checked maps around Orange and found that there is no large lake or dam or levee just upstream and we radioed to correct the reports letting people know that they likely applied to Addicks Dam in Houston if they applied to anywhere. Within minutes the same guy came on and announced that the failure of the dam was imminent, the Coast Guard had informed him, etc. A lot of bad information and potentially damaging misinformation was spread. Anyway. We're home now. Rebuilding will take a while. Help if you can.
SigmundA 9y ago
Lot of misconception on this app that it works without cell service, like a regular walkie talkie. Does seem like a good idea if Apple or Samsung might build in some point to point radio hardware similar to a Gotenna that's works without cell infrastructure.
- thescriptkiddie 9y ago
  Serval actually does this with WiFi mesh networking. http://www.servalproject.org/ http://www.servalproject.org/
  - SigmundA 9y ago
    Wifi mesh seems obvious but at 2.4ghz or 5ghz too limited in range. I was thinking 150Mhz~ MURS like Gotenna for a few miles range.
    - thescriptkiddie 9y ago
      They have a "Mesh Extender" which uses 900 MHz ISM band radios for ~4 km range, and can be connected to an external HF radio if you have a HAM license. It even implements store-and-forward so you can send messages to people who are wandering in and out of range.
- cat199 9y ago
  Yes, so the public can spontaneously make their own fully autonomous infrastructure free of financial and political interests. Oh wait. yeah that will never happen.
forkandwait 9y ago
I wish there were a disaster militia, with something like quarterly weekend trainings, with some FEMA sponsorship but still independent. It would be fun to practice ham communications and boat rescue anyway, and a little bit of practice could have a huge impact when the shit is truly hitting the fan.
- froindt 9y ago
  That's sort of what the national guard is for. They train a couple weeks per year and respond to situations like this.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    They weren't enough unfortunately, hence the cajun navy. Some sort of civilian auxiliary corps would be awesome. I'm thinking of more of a social graph where civilians who are going to help in these sorts of situations can be organized more efficiently. For instance, instead of having a bunch of people drive their personal cars out there, going out as a group would improve the individual's abilities to help efficiently.
  - forkandwait 9y ago
    Well, the national guard aren't civilians or local, plus they get sent to fight in wars and shit. I am thinking more like a level below volunteer firepeople, with some regional and national coordination.
    - cat199 9y ago
      state guard. many states have it. Or form your own. visit your local shooting range for details.
      - vkou 9y ago
        My (outsider's) impression of most private militias is that they often structure around people who are itching to gun down some bad dudes, as opposed to provide humanitarian aid. Like, ah, these fine gentlemen. [1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-canadas-armed-anti-islamic-patriot-group https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-canad...
lsiebert 9y ago
I notice people talking about untrained ad hoc groups VS professional and paraprofessionals. There is no competition here, there is only lives saved. Untrained ad hoc groups had smaller boats, had more boats, and were able to help people who would have died otherwise. I do think it is worthwhile to talk about problems that occurred. Get a list of them, prioritize them, find solutions. Though they have to be solutions that don't make things worse, preferably ones that get tested during a mock disaster, not during the next real one. One thing to note: Most people involved in these efforts were good intentioned and did their best. There are a few reports of bad actors, but they were rare.
- mtreis86 9y ago
  One thing in training you are constantly reminded of, is not to become one of the victims.
- hectorr1 9y ago
  A decent plan executed fast beats the perfect solution next week every time when lives are on the line. That said, now we have some time to think and plan. So let's make an app. What training videos or info graphics does an ad-hoc flood rescue group need? How about urban earthquake? Terrorism response? Wildfire? How do you do effective dispatch? Triage? How do you best integrate with the professionals when they show up? The knowledge gap between an amateur and a paraprofessional has never been substantial, and now we have the ability to provide training on-demand. We just need to build the capability to rapidly scale baseline knowledge and plug into a coordinated network. When disaster hits, you download the app and see what you can do.
  - lsiebert 9y ago
    There is knowledge and there are skills. An app can provide knowledge, but only training and practice can provide skills. Skills may, to a limited extent, be substituted by something that guides decision making. Like that chatbot that helps people file small claims against Equifax. But that works best with well documented stable situations, and can be brittle in more fluid (no pun intended) ones. As well, when it comes to definitive local resources like phone numbers, web sites, you have to keep checking them and updating them. And if information is changing rapidly or uncertain, this may be extremely difficult. I am a generally thoughtful individual, but I really see the benefit of a domain expert in planning any app or tool for this purpose.
neves 9y ago
When I first read this thread I was really happy to read so many stories about people flocking to help each other. But I became almost depressed after reading this https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-caribbean-st-martin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-carib... I've got different meanings for "First World Problems".
tlrobinson 9y ago
> The second he answered, he was screaming that his brother and cousin were laying in the backyard, unresponsive, possibly electrocuted. > I told him they needed to try to get to them > I went to the bathroom, refilled my tea, walked around a bit, thinking to myself, "What are you doing?? You're not qualified to do this!" I'm not trained to handle this sort of thing either, but I'm pretty sure if you suspect someone has been electrocuted you shouldn't encourage others to attempt to rescue them unless you're confident they aren't also at risk of electrocution.
- aplummer 9y ago
  I was mortified reading this part. As well, telling people rescue is soon when you don't know (or know it isn't) can be disastrous.
kirankn 9y ago
Real Heroes!
mnw21cam 9y ago
Could I ask, what's so bad about going into the attic? Surely that's just one of the easier ways to get out onto the roof?
- michelb 9y ago
  If you have no roof access from the attic, and the water level rises, you are stuck.
  - mnw21cam 9y ago
    Rip away the roofing felt, shove the tiles, then you have a hole. Climb out.
    - wiredfool 9y ago
      After you've gone through the 3/8"-3/4" plywood/osb that's nailed on well enough to not come of in a hurricane?
    - michaelcampbell 9y ago
      My attic at least has several layers of plywood between the airspace and the felt. Probably why you see footage of rescue teams trying to get to the attic from the outside... with axes.
- lathiat 9y ago
  Depending on the roof construction it may not be that easy. A true least not without tools. And then you're very likely to end up trapped in there and drown if the water level comes up over your roofline
- Andrenid 9y ago
  The end of the article said that family got stuck in the attic and the water rose higher than the roof, drowning them all. That's why.

324 points by rodrigocoelho 9y ago

I heard about Zello through this article a couple days ago. I installed it and to be honest it's been kind of interesting to listen to, reminded me of the old days when I wold listen in on my CB radio to the random chatter. I'm not sure how useful it is for actual communication though, it seems like SMS or similar apps are more efficient and let me know I didn't miss anything if I'm away from my phone for a while.

briffle 9y ago
This tool is more useful for immediate communication with 'somebody' not 2 way communication. I listened in to a channel with Irma closing in, and People were asking questions like "I'm on the road, and not going to make it, what is the nearest evacuation center to where I am now?" or important messages were relayed like "We are working at store X, in city Y, and we just got another truck with more bottled water"

subway 9y ago

It's really depressing that we've largely abandoned the art of decentralized radio communication. I think Amateur radio has seen a minor resurgence in recent years, but it seems like more and more traffic that traditionally would have been passed by decentralized amateur operators now relies on centralized networks. Obviously Zello and its ilk bring significant benefits with them, but I worry about the impact they have on proliferation of radio skills.

okreallywtf 9y ago
This seems like an opportunity for the amateur radio community to remind the world of its existence and to do some outreach that could eventually save lives. I have an emergency radio (1 way) that I've never used but if all other lines of communication were to go down I would pull it out and crank it up (literally, its a crank radio). It seems uncertain whether these kinds of weather events are going to become more common but in general it does seem that climate change is likely to cause more extreme weather conditions worldwide (some of the wildfires we've seen could have a similar isolating need-rescue situations), disaster preparedness might become much more of a way of life than it has been for us in a while.
sverige 9y ago
Amateur radio is still alive, but there are not nearly as many active hams as there were 30 years ago when I first got my license. A much smaller percentage of hams know how to pass traffic in a systematic way these days, and not as many are proficient with Morse code, which is arguably the most efficient use of spectrum in disaster scenarios. Hams did help during Harvey and are helping during Irma, but it doesn't get as much press as it used to. I also think that there has been sort of a systematic degradation in neighborhood relations that has an impact on disaster response. My neighborhood has mostly middle aged and older people in it now, most of us know each other, but many neighborhoods have become much more transient in the last generation or so and ties are not as strong. My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to consider picking up the radio hobby. It has some real old school hacker opportunities for everyone. And, it has never been easier to obtain an amateur license. The Morse code requirements have been dropped. The technical part of the test is not that difficult for anyone with any understanding of electronics. The regulations are somewhat obscure, but not difficult to grasp. We need an infusion of new amateur radio operators. The old guys (like my dad) are disappearing fast.
- uabstraction 9y ago
  > My challenge to a community that includes "hacker" in its name is to consider picking up the radio hobby. You hit the nail on the head here. I've been fooling around with computer programming for over a decade now (since I was in Jr. High), and Arduinos and Raspberry Pis as long as they have been available, but I never put much thought into ham radio. Most of the makers I know go straight to pre-made WiFi or Bluetooth modules when the time comes to make their projects work wirelessly - accepting their limitations while overlooking much simpler solutions which can be achieved though RF and a little bit of know-how. In hindsight, I wish I had learned about ham radio much sooner. There is a massive schism between the ham community and the hacker community which doesn't make much sense to me. They are both very much interested in finding novel solutions to problems and sharing them with the community, doing more with less, placing value in decentralization, and have a similar sort of independent counter-culture and grounded respect for technology. I think it is simply a problem of awareness. Before I got into ham radio, I assumed that the FCC simply allocated a tiny bucket of useless spectrum for amateur use, and that it's practical utility was quite limited. I didn't know that amateurs had access to bands all the way across the spectrum, that they are allowed to transmit at 1500 watts, that they could talk directly to the ISS, or make use of satellite repeaters and reach across oceans with a walkie talkie. On the HF bands, ham radio makes international communication possible without any middleman, subscription fee, or infrastructure. It is also a godsend for people launching weather balloons, allows you to build some incredibly badass RC craft, and can serve as the backbone of all sorts of other fascinating endeavors. I think the schism is generational. The maker movement is composed largely of kids who grew up with the Internet, and really took off with social media and web 2.0, while the ham community is composed of a large body of people who came of age and mastered their craft before computers became ubiquitous. For better or worse, a lot of them seem to remain set in their ways. Many ham websites, including those of active clubs, brick and mortar stores, and repeater networks, look like they're straight out of the 90s, and social media outreach remains quite limited. I suppose the fundamentals of radio, much like physics or mathematics, hasn't changed much in the past 50 years, but these communities unfortunately seem to be living in different worlds. I think that it is essential for us to bridge the gap. The alliance of the hams and the makers really stands to bring positive outcomes for both communities.
redog 9y ago
LTE is radio. and WTF is decentralized radio? I don't think you can run a transmitter on the blockchain.
- nocha 9y ago
  And what happens when a hurricane takes down the cell tower? Or the power is out for days and the cell tower's backup batteries run dry? Decentralised radio is essentially ham radio. Individual units talking directly to each other, without relying on a single point of failure (the cell company). As others have said above, ham radio is a godsend in some situations. If you use the right bands, you can talk halfway around the world while running off batteries and using a wire thrown over a tree for an antenna.
  - redog 9y ago
    > you can talk halfway around the world while running off batteries and using a wire thrown over a tree for an antenna. And then what when everyone talks. Isn't it already regulated for this same reasoning? Seems to me a combination of open protocols and mesh networking would be better than government restricted ham.
    - zeckalpha 9y ago
      Much mesh networking innovation is happening in ham communities. Go check it out.
  - driverdan 9y ago
    Most mobile radio operators rely on repeaters which is a form of centralization. You can communicate without them but need to be closer or have the right equipment ahead of time.
- XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y ago
  decentralized != blockchain.
hamthrowaway 9y ago
I tried getting into Amateur Radio. I'm mid-30s, and I really liked the idea of ham radio, ever since I was a child. So I went ahead and spent 8 months on it. I got my Extra license (the highest level), learned all about Ares, got into nets.. all of it. I bought an Icom 7300 (really great radio). I even started learning Morse. Why did I quit? I couldn't deal with some of the hmm,"interesting" people on ham radio! I have a slight accent, enough to mark me out as a non-native born American (I'm a citizen now though), and I kept meeting people who were downright nasty to me. I tried focusing on the positive, but after a few months and one particularly unpleasant contact, my wife asked me why I was wasting my time trying to talk to people who clearly didn't want me around. She was right, and I quit. Yes, I met plenty of really nice hams, but every week that I was on the air, I would be bound to find someone calling me names. Sure, you can just "spin the dial", but for those who don't know, ham radio is not anonymous. FCC regulations state that you have to give your call sign every 10 minutes, and you can look up anyone's name and home address from that call sign. That unpleasant contact consisted of a fine citizen telling me that he was going to come over and "kick my ass". Just because he thought I was illegal or something like that. I'm sure he was just bloviating, but hey, I have a wife and kids.. I'm not risking it. I'm still an Extra, but I sold my radios and don't want to get into it anymore.
Faark 9y ago
I have no experience with amateur radio. How resilient is it against bad actors? If i'd about to drown i'd probably keep yelling for help, regardless of consequences (for others). How do you handle such cases without some authority like in centralized networks? Switch to a different frequency?

wnissen 9y ago

Why don't we have people doing this dispatch professionally? What are FEMA and the Red Cross doing if not helping coordinate emergency response when the normal channels are overwhelmed? Don't get me wrong, this person, and all those who aid the rescue efforts, is a hero. Don't the people who do this deserve to get paid and have resources for dealing with PTSD? And don't the victims deserve organized, professional response?

okreallywtf 9y ago
I'm not sure why you got downvoted, perhaps downvoters would chime in? I get that local organizations deal with some situations better than some large, clumsy bureaucracy but I tend to agree with wnissen, if this continues as trend relying on a patchwork of individuals (heroic as they may be). I wish there was a non-military or less-military domestic version of this, I've considered joining the national guard for this reason but I'm don't trust that I wouldn't end up fighting and dying in a pointless war. If there was another volunteer force that was devoted to humanitarian issues and search and rescue I would be all for it.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  Isn't that about the Red Cross? (which has its own issues around funding efficiency) Or the Civil Air Patrol? Or (less military, not non-military) US Coast Guard?
  - briandear 9y ago
    The Red Cross doesn’t do rescues. They come in after the fact generally to both help people and plan their next fundraiser. It still takes time to deploy people.
- justin66 9y ago
  > I wish there was a non-military or less-military domestic version of this, I've considered joining the national guard for this reason but I'm don't trust that I wouldn't end up fighting and dying in a pointless war. If there was another volunteer force that was devoted to humanitarian issues and search and rescue I would be all for it. You're basically describing the Coast Guard. I believe they do hire reservists.

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aaroninsf 9y ago

The part of this story I don't understand myself, is how so many people had bandwidth to download and use an app, in an environment in which I would have assumed both power and the cell network–especially data–were limping or just down. The implicit question is, what percentage of people in the disaster zone did, and did not, have a channel out through this app? Does this story represent the 10% case or the 50% case or...? Not sure where to find the answer...

danielvf 9y ago
A lot of times, people using the app were freinds of those being rescued, and were in touch with them over SMS or phone. However, many were using the app, and it's a great showing on the part of the Houston cell network.
imglorp 9y ago
Some of the cellphone network can operate with no wired power or network. Towers can have p2p microwave links and battery backups. That doesn't really answer your question about how/if/how-long it worked this week. http://ups-battery-backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php http://ups-battery-backup.com/cell-phone-ups.php https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-services/cell-tower-backhaul.html https://enterprise.spectrum.com/solutions/carrier-services/c...
- jpindar 9y ago
  Some of the ones near me even have small wind generators.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    These probably were super-effective during this occasion
sixothree 9y ago
Right. I know of people who lost power and cell phone coverage.
9y ago

beamatronic 9y ago

We need ham radio hardware with an iOS interface

tjohns 9y ago
It exists. Off the top of my head, Flex SDR radios can be fully network controlled via iOS: http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signature-series/smartsdr-for-ios/ http://www.flexradio.com/amateur-products/flex-6000-signatur... There's other options as well. But I'm not sure how that would help here?
- BHSPitMonkey 9y ago
  Yeah, it wouldn't really help communicate with the victims in an emergency like this because virtually none of the general public is going to have (and know how to use) specialized equipment that they only need in extremely rare situations. Perhaps equipment could be distributed to the volunteers, but it seems like many of the boat owners already had basic radio capabilities anyway.
joshdance 9y ago
I was thinking the same thing. Some way to make radio easier to use etc.
deleted 9y ago
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Damogran6 9y ago

Holy Crap that's a tough read.

lukejduncan 9y ago

When Katrina hit, I remember finding the blog of a guy who had a company doing custom websites in New Orleans on the front page of hacker news. He stayed there through the storm and after, and I remember sitting in the undergraduate library at Wayne State University fighting back tears reading it. This had a similar affect on me. Very powerful story. It wasn't clear to me, but I'd love to learn more about the tech powering this app. Is it open source? Is it somehow decentralized?

joshdance 9y ago
I remember the same blog. He talked about fuel running out, posted pictures from the high rise etc?
- lukejduncan 9y ago
  That sounds right
acchow 9y ago
Link please?
harryh 9y ago
You might be thinking about https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/ https://interdictor.livejournal.com/2005/08/ ?
- justajot 9y ago
  The Interdictor // this is the one that I remember. I was glued to this guy's post during that time ... was fascinating.
- iamrecursion 9y ago
  This is a haunting read, but gripping at the same time. Thank you for posting it.
structural 9y ago
What a blast from the past. Katrina hit during my senior year of undergrad and I went and refreshed that very same blog each hour for a day or two following along with events as they happened, as he saw them. Was an amazing perspective at the time.

doodlebugging 9y ago

We used Zello when we were down there with a boat. We are just regular people, not part of anyone's navy, just a few guys with a boat that were part of a much larger civilian response to this disaster. About the Cajun Navy - There were so many people responding to this disaster wanting to help with their time and boats that many times we found ourselves staging to launch but ultimately unable to get in the water because the neighborhood or area we were planning to search only needed 15-20 boats and two or three times that many boats staged for the task. That means dozens of trucks pulling every kind of floating contraption lined up on relatively dry Houston streets and roads and waited in line hoping to be able to take off into the floods and bring people out who needed assistance. When the authorities determined that enough boats had launched for that area, everyone else had to find somewhere else to go. Massive resources were wasted with boats lined up in one spot that could've been actively searching somewhere else. We ran into a couple of guys from the east coast following Zello Cajun Navy reports who at great expense, drove out to help and had not been able to participate for two days because they were trying to stage in spots where the Cajun Navy was being called up. Once the call went out to the Cajun Navy, boats flooded in from all over and you were nearly guaranteed to have more than you needed. In Orange, we ran into a Texas-based rescue outfit, not the Texas Navy but some group who dressed in military duds. We explained that we were heading into one of the neighborhoods along the Sabine to check a report and asked whether they had already checked it or knew anything about it. They hadn't heard that report or checked that area so we were cleared to go in and the leader of the group asked how we heard about the people needing help. When told that we heard it over Zello, he commented to the effect that the Cajun Navy and Zello was kicking their asses in mustering people and boats. Fun stuff but the reality of the Cajun Navy effort from our standpoint was that a lot of people wasted a lot of time following their channels and maybe better coordination with other groups would've made a smoother effort. About the Cajun Navy channels on Zello and Zello itself - Over time the effort evolved into one where each affected area had a dedicated channel to direct boaters to those who most needed assistance. This was not true at the start when the Houston channel had reports from all over the Houston area and eventually Beaumont, Port Arthur, Orange and Vidor too. It was tough at first to determine where the person filing the report was located although there was a website we used to guide us that was actively accumulating requests for rescue and pinning them on an active map. This map evolved to eventually drop many of the requests that were determined to be expired due to rescue already happening or floods receding, etc. We chased reports from that map in the areas that we worked and several times found ourselves following an old report that had not been updated. Obviously, the solution to that is to have boaters radio in and update as they visit addresses. Once the large collection of initial reports from those who had been rescued were tagged or removed the site was much more useful. A big drawback of Zello in our opinion is that it is vulnerable to manipulation by anyone with the app installed. We kept hearing reports of shots fired at rescue boaters, attempts to steal rescuers boats, rescuers being attacked by residents, etc. and I feel that they were almost all false. We staged at Addicks Dam at the same time reports were actively coming in on Zello Houston channel about shots being fired and boaters were encouraged at the staging area there and later at Bass Pro Shops in Katy to be aware that some rescuers had been targeted. While at Addicks Dam staging area none of us, all Texans and familiar with weapons and gunshots, heard anything remotely like a gunshot. In the days that we were there none of us heard a gunshot at all though the reports over Zello made it sound like you might be taking your life into your hands if you tried to rescue in some of these neighborhoods. A number of rescue boaters were armed and as far as I know none of them had to fire a single shot. I could be wrong though. Along the same lines Zello was full of reports about imminent dam or levee failures. This got really old as we moved from Houston to Beaumont to Orange and kept hearing the same reports of imminent failure from possibly the same person who kept assuring listeners that the Coast Guard was there with him and informing him that people should leave as failure was imminent. Jeez. Give it a rest. I checked maps around Orange and found that there is no large lake or dam or levee just upstream and we radioed to correct the reports letting people know that they likely applied to Addicks Dam in Houston if they applied to anywhere. Within minutes the same guy came on and announced that the failure of the dam was imminent, the Coast Guard had informed him, etc. A lot of bad information and potentially damaging misinformation was spread. Anyway. We're home now. Rebuilding will take a while. Help if you can.

SigmundA 9y ago

Lot of misconception on this app that it works without cell service, like a regular walkie talkie. Does seem like a good idea if Apple or Samsung might build in some point to point radio hardware similar to a Gotenna that's works without cell infrastructure.

thescriptkiddie 9y ago
Serval actually does this with WiFi mesh networking. http://www.servalproject.org/ http://www.servalproject.org/
- SigmundA 9y ago
  Wifi mesh seems obvious but at 2.4ghz or 5ghz too limited in range. I was thinking 150Mhz~ MURS like Gotenna for a few miles range.
  - thescriptkiddie 9y ago
    They have a "Mesh Extender" which uses 900 MHz ISM band radios for ~4 km range, and can be connected to an external HF radio if you have a HAM license. It even implements store-and-forward so you can send messages to people who are wandering in and out of range.
cat199 9y ago
Yes, so the public can spontaneously make their own fully autonomous infrastructure free of financial and political interests. Oh wait. yeah that will never happen.

forkandwait 9y ago

I wish there were a disaster militia, with something like quarterly weekend trainings, with some FEMA sponsorship but still independent. It would be fun to practice ham communications and boat rescue anyway, and a little bit of practice could have a huge impact when the shit is truly hitting the fan.

froindt 9y ago
That's sort of what the national guard is for. They train a couple weeks per year and respond to situations like this.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  They weren't enough unfortunately, hence the cajun navy. Some sort of civilian auxiliary corps would be awesome. I'm thinking of more of a social graph where civilians who are going to help in these sorts of situations can be organized more efficiently. For instance, instead of having a bunch of people drive their personal cars out there, going out as a group would improve the individual's abilities to help efficiently.
- forkandwait 9y ago
  Well, the national guard aren't civilians or local, plus they get sent to fight in wars and shit. I am thinking more like a level below volunteer firepeople, with some regional and national coordination.
  - cat199 9y ago
    state guard. many states have it. Or form your own. visit your local shooting range for details.
    - vkou 9y ago
      My (outsider's) impression of most private militias is that they often structure around people who are itching to gun down some bad dudes, as opposed to provide humanitarian aid. Like, ah, these fine gentlemen. [1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-canadas-armed-anti-islamic-patriot-group https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/new9wd/the-birth-of-canad...

lsiebert 9y ago

I notice people talking about untrained ad hoc groups VS professional and paraprofessionals. There is no competition here, there is only lives saved. Untrained ad hoc groups had smaller boats, had more boats, and were able to help people who would have died otherwise. I do think it is worthwhile to talk about problems that occurred. Get a list of them, prioritize them, find solutions. Though they have to be solutions that don't make things worse, preferably ones that get tested during a mock disaster, not during the next real one. One thing to note: Most people involved in these efforts were good intentioned and did their best. There are a few reports of bad actors, but they were rare.

mtreis86 9y ago
One thing in training you are constantly reminded of, is not to become one of the victims.
hectorr1 9y ago
A decent plan executed fast beats the perfect solution next week every time when lives are on the line. That said, now we have some time to think and plan. So let's make an app. What training videos or info graphics does an ad-hoc flood rescue group need? How about urban earthquake? Terrorism response? Wildfire? How do you do effective dispatch? Triage? How do you best integrate with the professionals when they show up? The knowledge gap between an amateur and a paraprofessional has never been substantial, and now we have the ability to provide training on-demand. We just need to build the capability to rapidly scale baseline knowledge and plug into a coordinated network. When disaster hits, you download the app and see what you can do.
- lsiebert 9y ago
  There is knowledge and there are skills. An app can provide knowledge, but only training and practice can provide skills. Skills may, to a limited extent, be substituted by something that guides decision making. Like that chatbot that helps people file small claims against Equifax. But that works best with well documented stable situations, and can be brittle in more fluid (no pun intended) ones. As well, when it comes to definitive local resources like phone numbers, web sites, you have to keep checking them and updating them. And if information is changing rapidly or uncertain, this may be extremely difficult. I am a generally thoughtful individual, but I really see the benefit of a domain expert in planning any app or tool for this purpose.

neves 9y ago

When I first read this thread I was really happy to read so many stories about people flocking to help each other. But I became almost depressed after reading this https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-caribbean-st-martin.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/10/world/americas/irma-carib... I've got different meanings for "First World Problems".

tlrobinson 9y ago

> The second he answered, he was screaming that his brother and cousin were laying in the backyard, unresponsive, possibly electrocuted. > I told him they needed to try to get to them > I went to the bathroom, refilled my tea, walked around a bit, thinking to myself, "What are you doing?? You're not qualified to do this!" I'm not trained to handle this sort of thing either, but I'm pretty sure if you suspect someone has been electrocuted you shouldn't encourage others to attempt to rescue them unless you're confident they aren't also at risk of electrocution.

aplummer 9y ago
I was mortified reading this part. As well, telling people rescue is soon when you don't know (or know it isn't) can be disastrous.

kirankn 9y ago

Real Heroes!

mnw21cam 9y ago

Could I ask, what's so bad about going into the attic? Surely that's just one of the easier ways to get out onto the roof?

michelb 9y ago
If you have no roof access from the attic, and the water level rises, you are stuck.
- mnw21cam 9y ago
  Rip away the roofing felt, shove the tiles, then you have a hole. Climb out.
  - wiredfool 9y ago
    After you've gone through the 3/8"-3/4" plywood/osb that's nailed on well enough to not come of in a hurricane?
  - michaelcampbell 9y ago
    My attic at least has several layers of plywood between the airspace and the felt. Probably why you see footage of rescue teams trying to get to the attic from the outside... with axes.
lathiat 9y ago
Depending on the roof construction it may not be that easy. A true least not without tools. And then you're very likely to end up trapped in there and drown if the water level comes up over your roofline
Andrenid 9y ago
The end of the article said that family got stuck in the attic and the water rose higher than the roof, drowning them all. That's why.