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You mention the superior driving experience. Are you talking about a Mistubishi i-MiEV or a Model S here? Your experience with a Model S isn't just because it's

You mention the superior driving experience. Are you talking about a Mistubishi i-MiEV or a Model S here? Your experience with a Model S isn't just because it's electric, it's also a really expensive car. I somehow doubt that if you drove the Mistubishi, you would say the same thing.

mikeash 9y ago
I have a CLA250 loaner while my Model S is in the shop, and the drivetrain is just amazingly atrocious. Now, it's not fair to compare it to a Model S, but a Model 3 has a similar price to the CLA250 but will drive like the Model S. (I have an 85, not one of the crazy performance models. Its published 0-60 is about the same as the Model 3's.) After driving an EV for a while, this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service. You push the accelerator and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and finally the car starts to go.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  What you experience in the CLA250 is a combination of turbo lag and an electronic throttle optimizing for low fuel consumption. There should be an option where you can engage sport mode to increase the throttle response and also prevent the gearbox from selecting a high gear to keep revs low. I drive a car with the VW EA888 2.0 (230BHP@4000RPM, 370lb-ft@1600RPM) and it is possible to have near immediate throttle response and pull provided you're familiar with the gear ratios and power curve of the car. However, it's also a manual, so I don't have the disadvantage of being caught out in the wrong gear.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I'll have to give it a try in sport mode this afternoon and see how much better it is. "Near immediate" sounds an awful lot like "near pregnant" though.
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      You'll find that it will cause the car to hold gears almost up to redline, which isn't great in traffic or when cruising. Whenever I drive an automatic, I ALWAYS use the paddle shifters and put the gearbox into manual mode so I have complete control over gearing.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        I've tried the paddle shifters but they work poorly. Half the time it doesn't even register them. I'll be revving high, press the + paddle, and nothing changes. Edit: so, I went to try sport mode and... turns out I've been driving around in sport mode all weekend already. Tried out "comfort" mode just to compare and couldn't see any difference. I'm sure a better driver could, but both are far away from instant response.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - arprocter 9y ago
        I find automatics in 'D' will try to keep themselves in too high of a gear (practically idling around, presumably to save fuel) so a downshift is needed to accelerate 'S' behaves more like a human driving a manual - I assume the MPG and emissions testing is done in 'D'
      - epistasis 9y ago
        That's one of the really really great things about electric cars: they are always ready to go, without having to control the gearbox. Now, there's a tiny percentage of the population that enjoys paddle shifters, and even I do sometimes, but if we had usage tracking on them I would bet that fewer than 10% of drivers use paddle shifters for more than 5 times in the lifetime of the car, and that cars with paddle shifters are in automatic transmission mode 99.9% of miles driven. So though some people will miss the gearbox, far far far more will rejoice in having a car that is always at maximum performance without messing with things.
- eric_h 9y ago
  > this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service I feel a similar difference between an automatic and a manual transmission car.
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    I was driving a Cupra 290 on the Nurburgring last week and I kept getting caught out by the kick-down feature on the DSG gearbox - even in Cupra (sport) mode. For example, I'd be exiting Breidscheid and the car would be in 4th instead of 3rd. Then there is then a good half second waiting for the DSG to downshift before power is available. In which time, I've just been overtaken by someone with a manual gearbox...
    - eric_h 9y ago
      It's really tough to beat the brain's mental timing once you've got a good feel for exactly when you should engage the accelerator once you've released the clutch. I've only driven a car with a DSG like that once, and I did find the timing of the shift a little disconcerting compared to that of releasing the clutch in time with the accelerator. It was fast, and undoubtedly faster than I could double clutch with a manual clutch, but it still felt slow.
- woobar 9y ago
  Similar price? CLA250 is 2.5 times cheaper than P85. It is also 2.5 seconds slower going 0-60. Not really sure where are you getting your data from...
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Where did you get "P85" from? My Model S is an 85, no P, with a published 0-60 of about 5.6 seconds. "Similar price" refers to the Model 3, not any Model S. The Model 3 starts at $35,000, the CLA250 starts at $32,700, that's pretty similar to me. Would it trouble you to read the comment you're replying to, or at least drop the attitude if you won't?
    - woobar 9y ago
      Sorry, did not realize you have S85, which is still 1.5 seconds faster. Your claim that Model 3 will run like S have no grounds. All you can honesty do is to compare that Benz to your S85.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        1.5 seconds faster than what? I compared 0-60 times between the S and the 3. The Model 3's published 0-60 is 5.1 or 5.6 seconds depending on whether you look at the base model or the long-range model. I'm quite confident that the Model 3 drives like my Model S. Acceleration is clearly similar, zero-lag is pretty much an inherent property of the EV drivetrain, and there's no reason to suspect otherwise.
      - funnelsgun 9y ago
        The more I get into cars the more I find 0-60 to be a poor metric for performance because it comes down to all wheel drive, traction (good OEM tires are a must) and short gearing. Power is important, but less so than the others. For evidence of this compare the extra long geared GT4 with the Carrera S, both of which have the same 3.8 flat-6 and more or less the same power output. What most people want to compare (but don't know it) are torque curves and power bands. I.e. how does the engine make its power and where is it in the rev range. We know that EVs provide constant torque, hence max power is available at all times (provided there is sufficient traction). When it comes to ICEs the situation much more complex. NAs tend to make all their power at the top of the rev range and torque peaks at around 3,000/4,000RPM. Turbo engines tend to make their power around 1,000RPM below redline and provide peak torque between 1600/3000RPM (the min can be higher for lower-displacement engines or engines with big turbos). However, off-boost, there is a noticeable absence of power, but this diminishes as displacement increases. I find it's these figures that need to be compared as the are much more indicative about acceleration in gear, smoothness and where the engine and gearing needs to be to make power.
- EngineerBetter 9y ago
  I've also got a Mercedes loan car, after a truck ripped the front off my Model X 90D. The Mercedes S 350 is so much more sluggish than either my Model X or my Renault Zoe. Put foot down, wait half a second, and make a ridiculous noise in the process. I have to use the brakes way more often because of the lack of regen, too. I am utterly convinced after 4 years of EV driving that 90% of drivers would switch to EVs for life, if they got to try one for a few weeks. Driving the Merc feels like using an HTC Vario compared to an iPhone.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    That's too bad. I thought maybe this was just a consequence of He CLA being a relatively low-end Mercedes.
    - parasubvert 9y ago
      I have a Mercedes C300, owned a CLA 45 AMG, and have driven a Tesla Model S for about 50 miles once. I loved my CLA, but I traded it for a C300 and made money off the deal (CLA AMGs are in hot demand). The CLA 45 had a great engine but suffered from a conservative transmission shifting algorithm. Sport mode was fine but comfort mode was designed for "A to B" driving at low fuel consumption. It also has responsiveness problems from full stop - this wasn't turbo lag per se, as if you don't notice it in launch mode. Once you got going, it was very fast. The Tesla interior is nearly identical to a Mercedes-Benz interior (they use many of the same parts), with the exception of the large tablet screen on the Tesla. It feels more like the low-end CLA interior than the wood grain C-class which feels more like the S-class. The Model S backseat is cramped compared to the Mercedes, it is more like the BMW 3-Series in terms of leg room. Practically speaking I would go with a Model X. That said, to me while the throttle response of the Tesla was truly amazing, the regenerative slowdown effect was.. weird. I really didn't like it. Given the price difference between the C-Series and Model S ($55k vs 95k in Canada, and $130k or More for a model X), I think the C-class will continue to win out except for those with significantly more income. Tesla sells a better car, but not 2x better. Mercedes has time to catch up with its own EV.
      - 9y ago
varjag 9y ago
I drive a Leaf daily. Owned a petrol family sedan for 8 years before that and drive all kind of ICE medium-to-premium class rentals (stick and auto) on trips. You get to pay through the nose before a petrol vehicle begins to compare to an entry level electric in driving experience.
- olyjohn 9y ago
  The problem is the Leaf still starts at $31,000. go up a couple trim levels, and we're in the $36,000 range easily. That's not an entry level car. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I can get one hell of a nice gas powered car that will blow the Leaf away in any measure. (edit, except one, obviously). Those rental cars you drove were probably significantly cheaper than the Leaf as well. Again, I'm just reinforcing that having an electric drivetrain doesn't turn the car into some magical nice car. You're still paying for that premium experience.
  - varjag 9y ago
    Well I had a CLK, a Q5 and some kind of Lexus as rentals; none of them is terribly cheap. Especially here in Norway, where Leaf starts at about $26k and is one of the cheapest cars you can buy. (CLK was OK, the Audi and Lexus clearly inferior).
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    Should also take into account that it saves you a huge amount on petrol
cptskippy 9y ago
I agree with his statement and I drive a used Nissan Leaf. Despite Nissan's assertions to the contrary, the Leaf doesn't strike me as being an EV built from the ground up but an ICEV converted. The car is a lot of fun to drive and after having driven it for many months, driving an ICEV is unpleasant. EVs drive very smoothly without all of the acceleration or deceleration lurch of an ICE drive train. There's no power lag, when I drive an ICE now I have to remember about the power lag and it's frankly annoying. EVs are quiet and it's a little unnerving at first. After you're use to it you notice how noisy ICEV are and it's unpleasant. ICEV smell, there's no way around it. I had to buy gas for my lawnmower a week ago and I can still smell it in the Leaf. It also struck me as to how dirty fuel stations are, something I never really noticed before. With an EV you avoid all of that unpleasantness and just plug in at home or your destination. If you do have to stop, the charging stations aren't crusted with grime that I assume comes from fuel or fumes mixing with dirty and sticking to everything. They are more convenient. Routine maintenance is just coolant, battery, and tire checks a few times a year instead of weekly stops for gas and going for oil changes every couple months, on top of other maintenance checkups. EVs aren't perfect but after having owned one for a few months I definitely won't go back to an ICEV as my daily driver without a fight.
- aembleton 9y ago
  What car requires an oil change every couple of months?
  - concede_pluto 9y ago
    For every car I ever owned before this year, they recommended an oil change every 3,000 miles (a little more than two months for me) or at most three months. I don't know if they got that much better or the recommendations were loosened to match observed problems.
    - bdibs 9y ago
      Most modern cars can/do use fully synthetic oil, which can last ~10k+ miles.

mikeash 9y ago

I have a CLA250 loaner while my Model S is in the shop, and the drivetrain is just amazingly atrocious. Now, it's not fair to compare it to a Model S, but a Model 3 has a similar price to the CLA250 but will drive like the Model S. (I have an 85, not one of the crazy performance models. Its published 0-60 is about the same as the Model 3's.) After driving an EV for a while, this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service. You push the accelerator and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and finally the car starts to go.

funnelsgun 9y ago
What you experience in the CLA250 is a combination of turbo lag and an electronic throttle optimizing for low fuel consumption. There should be an option where you can engage sport mode to increase the throttle response and also prevent the gearbox from selecting a high gear to keep revs low. I drive a car with the VW EA888 2.0 (230BHP@4000RPM, 370lb-ft@1600RPM) and it is possible to have near immediate throttle response and pull provided you're familiar with the gear ratios and power curve of the car. However, it's also a manual, so I don't have the disadvantage of being caught out in the wrong gear.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I'll have to give it a try in sport mode this afternoon and see how much better it is. "Near immediate" sounds an awful lot like "near pregnant" though.
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    You'll find that it will cause the car to hold gears almost up to redline, which isn't great in traffic or when cruising. Whenever I drive an automatic, I ALWAYS use the paddle shifters and put the gearbox into manual mode so I have complete control over gearing.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I've tried the paddle shifters but they work poorly. Half the time it doesn't even register them. I'll be revving high, press the + paddle, and nothing changes. Edit: so, I went to try sport mode and... turns out I've been driving around in sport mode all weekend already. Tried out "comfort" mode just to compare and couldn't see any difference. I'm sure a better driver could, but both are far away from instant response.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - arprocter 9y ago
      I find automatics in 'D' will try to keep themselves in too high of a gear (practically idling around, presumably to save fuel) so a downshift is needed to accelerate 'S' behaves more like a human driving a manual - I assume the MPG and emissions testing is done in 'D'
    - epistasis 9y ago
      That's one of the really really great things about electric cars: they are always ready to go, without having to control the gearbox. Now, there's a tiny percentage of the population that enjoys paddle shifters, and even I do sometimes, but if we had usage tracking on them I would bet that fewer than 10% of drivers use paddle shifters for more than 5 times in the lifetime of the car, and that cars with paddle shifters are in automatic transmission mode 99.9% of miles driven. So though some people will miss the gearbox, far far far more will rejoice in having a car that is always at maximum performance without messing with things.
eric_h 9y ago
> this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service I feel a similar difference between an automatic and a manual transmission car.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  I was driving a Cupra 290 on the Nurburgring last week and I kept getting caught out by the kick-down feature on the DSG gearbox - even in Cupra (sport) mode. For example, I'd be exiting Breidscheid and the car would be in 4th instead of 3rd. Then there is then a good half second waiting for the DSG to downshift before power is available. In which time, I've just been overtaken by someone with a manual gearbox...
  - eric_h 9y ago
    It's really tough to beat the brain's mental timing once you've got a good feel for exactly when you should engage the accelerator once you've released the clutch. I've only driven a car with a DSG like that once, and I did find the timing of the shift a little disconcerting compared to that of releasing the clutch in time with the accelerator. It was fast, and undoubtedly faster than I could double clutch with a manual clutch, but it still felt slow.
woobar 9y ago
Similar price? CLA250 is 2.5 times cheaper than P85. It is also 2.5 seconds slower going 0-60. Not really sure where are you getting your data from...
- mikeash 9y ago
  Where did you get "P85" from? My Model S is an 85, no P, with a published 0-60 of about 5.6 seconds. "Similar price" refers to the Model 3, not any Model S. The Model 3 starts at $35,000, the CLA250 starts at $32,700, that's pretty similar to me. Would it trouble you to read the comment you're replying to, or at least drop the attitude if you won't?
  - woobar 9y ago
    Sorry, did not realize you have S85, which is still 1.5 seconds faster. Your claim that Model 3 will run like S have no grounds. All you can honesty do is to compare that Benz to your S85.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      1.5 seconds faster than what? I compared 0-60 times between the S and the 3. The Model 3's published 0-60 is 5.1 or 5.6 seconds depending on whether you look at the base model or the long-range model. I'm quite confident that the Model 3 drives like my Model S. Acceleration is clearly similar, zero-lag is pretty much an inherent property of the EV drivetrain, and there's no reason to suspect otherwise.
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      The more I get into cars the more I find 0-60 to be a poor metric for performance because it comes down to all wheel drive, traction (good OEM tires are a must) and short gearing. Power is important, but less so than the others. For evidence of this compare the extra long geared GT4 with the Carrera S, both of which have the same 3.8 flat-6 and more or less the same power output. What most people want to compare (but don't know it) are torque curves and power bands. I.e. how does the engine make its power and where is it in the rev range. We know that EVs provide constant torque, hence max power is available at all times (provided there is sufficient traction). When it comes to ICEs the situation much more complex. NAs tend to make all their power at the top of the rev range and torque peaks at around 3,000/4,000RPM. Turbo engines tend to make their power around 1,000RPM below redline and provide peak torque between 1600/3000RPM (the min can be higher for lower-displacement engines or engines with big turbos). However, off-boost, there is a noticeable absence of power, but this diminishes as displacement increases. I find it's these figures that need to be compared as the are much more indicative about acceleration in gear, smoothness and where the engine and gearing needs to be to make power.
EngineerBetter 9y ago
I've also got a Mercedes loan car, after a truck ripped the front off my Model X 90D. The Mercedes S 350 is so much more sluggish than either my Model X or my Renault Zoe. Put foot down, wait half a second, and make a ridiculous noise in the process. I have to use the brakes way more often because of the lack of regen, too. I am utterly convinced after 4 years of EV driving that 90% of drivers would switch to EVs for life, if they got to try one for a few weeks. Driving the Merc feels like using an HTC Vario compared to an iPhone.
- mikeash 9y ago
  That's too bad. I thought maybe this was just a consequence of He CLA being a relatively low-end Mercedes.
  - parasubvert 9y ago
    I have a Mercedes C300, owned a CLA 45 AMG, and have driven a Tesla Model S for about 50 miles once. I loved my CLA, but I traded it for a C300 and made money off the deal (CLA AMGs are in hot demand). The CLA 45 had a great engine but suffered from a conservative transmission shifting algorithm. Sport mode was fine but comfort mode was designed for "A to B" driving at low fuel consumption. It also has responsiveness problems from full stop - this wasn't turbo lag per se, as if you don't notice it in launch mode. Once you got going, it was very fast. The Tesla interior is nearly identical to a Mercedes-Benz interior (they use many of the same parts), with the exception of the large tablet screen on the Tesla. It feels more like the low-end CLA interior than the wood grain C-class which feels more like the S-class. The Model S backseat is cramped compared to the Mercedes, it is more like the BMW 3-Series in terms of leg room. Practically speaking I would go with a Model X. That said, to me while the throttle response of the Tesla was truly amazing, the regenerative slowdown effect was.. weird. I really didn't like it. Given the price difference between the C-Series and Model S ($55k vs 95k in Canada, and $130k or More for a model X), I think the C-class will continue to win out except for those with significantly more income. Tesla sells a better car, but not 2x better. Mercedes has time to catch up with its own EV.
    - 9y ago

varjag 9y ago

I drive a Leaf daily. Owned a petrol family sedan for 8 years before that and drive all kind of ICE medium-to-premium class rentals (stick and auto) on trips. You get to pay through the nose before a petrol vehicle begins to compare to an entry level electric in driving experience.

olyjohn 9y ago
The problem is the Leaf still starts at $31,000. go up a couple trim levels, and we're in the $36,000 range easily. That's not an entry level car. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I can get one hell of a nice gas powered car that will blow the Leaf away in any measure. (edit, except one, obviously). Those rental cars you drove were probably significantly cheaper than the Leaf as well. Again, I'm just reinforcing that having an electric drivetrain doesn't turn the car into some magical nice car. You're still paying for that premium experience.
- varjag 9y ago
  Well I had a CLK, a Q5 and some kind of Lexus as rentals; none of them is terribly cheap. Especially here in Norway, where Leaf starts at about $26k and is one of the cheapest cars you can buy. (CLK was OK, the Audi and Lexus clearly inferior).
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Should also take into account that it saves you a huge amount on petrol

cptskippy 9y ago

I agree with his statement and I drive a used Nissan Leaf. Despite Nissan's assertions to the contrary, the Leaf doesn't strike me as being an EV built from the ground up but an ICEV converted. The car is a lot of fun to drive and after having driven it for many months, driving an ICEV is unpleasant. EVs drive very smoothly without all of the acceleration or deceleration lurch of an ICE drive train. There's no power lag, when I drive an ICE now I have to remember about the power lag and it's frankly annoying. EVs are quiet and it's a little unnerving at first. After you're use to it you notice how noisy ICEV are and it's unpleasant. ICEV smell, there's no way around it. I had to buy gas for my lawnmower a week ago and I can still smell it in the Leaf. It also struck me as to how dirty fuel stations are, something I never really noticed before. With an EV you avoid all of that unpleasantness and just plug in at home or your destination. If you do have to stop, the charging stations aren't crusted with grime that I assume comes from fuel or fumes mixing with dirty and sticking to everything. They are more convenient. Routine maintenance is just coolant, battery, and tire checks a few times a year instead of weekly stops for gas and going for oil changes every couple months, on top of other maintenance checkups. EVs aren't perfect but after having owned one for a few months I definitely won't go back to an ICEV as my daily driver without a fight.

aembleton 9y ago
What car requires an oil change every couple of months?
- concede_pluto 9y ago
  For every car I ever owned before this year, they recommended an oil change every 3,000 miles (a little more than two months for me) or at most three months. I don't know if they got that much better or the recommendations were loosened to match observed problems.
  - bdibs 9y ago
    Most modern cars can/do use fully synthetic oil, which can last ~10k+ miles.