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This is the company that pioneered the automotive gasoline engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimle

This is the company that pioneered the automotive gasoline engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler It's pretty clear (once you drive an EV) that a sea change is coming - they have reached the point where they are a superior driving experience most of the time. As other evidence, Tesla announced today that they are planning a major expansion of their supercharging network. https://www.tesla.com/supercharger https://www.tesla.com/supercharger I wonder if we'll be talking about Tesla in a hundred years the same way we talk about Mercedes today?

_up 9y ago
Tesla compares probably more to the developer of the modern Tire. I think their main innovation is mass producing batteries. And I also believe that car ownership in Cities is going away with self driving cars. Google will probably go for offering free rides for sponsored destinations and become a major portal to the offline world.
- tonyhb 9y ago
  Isn't that Panasonic, who have been making batteries for decades? I love Tesla as much as the rest, though I feel that Panasonic's expertise may be understated in the Tesla partnership. Though I may be very ignorant.
  - ckastner 9y ago
    I, too, am under that impression, in general. In particular, however, there is one notable source that emphasizes Panasonic's role: Tesla's SEC filings. Quoting TSLA's 2015 10-K[1]: We believe that the Gigafactory will allow us to achieve a significant reduction in the cost of our battery packs once we are in volume production with Model 3. The total capital expenditures associated with the Gigafactory through 2020 are expected to be $4 to $5 billion, of which approximately $2 billion is expected to come from Tesla. Panasonic has agreed to partner with us on the Gigafactory with investments in production equipment that it will use to manufacture and supply us with battery cells. We have a supply agreement with Panasonic that, among other things, allows us to purchase a minimum of 1.8 billion lithium-ion battery cells at preferential prices that we intend to purchase from 2014 through 2017. We have agreed to prepare and provide the land, buildings and utilities, invest in production equipment for battery module and pack production and be responsible for the overall management of the Gigafactory. [1] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000156459016013195/tsla-10k_20151231.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000156459016...
  - _up 9y ago
    If people go from owning a cellphone battery with 4 Wh to a 65.000 Wh car battery and a 20.000 Wh home battery, battery production have to be extremely increased.
    - epistasis 9y ago
      Yes, there are massive investments from many companies in expanding the battery production industry. Gigafactory 1, in Reno, is a $5B capital investment that aims to produce 50GWh of batteries in 2018, and if they get $100/kWh in 2018, far lower than current prices, then yearly revenue is the same as the cost of Gigafactory 1. So there's tons of room to grow lithium ion manufacturing capacity. That's only one part of the supply chain though... Looking just at lithium, there seems to be somewhat ample supply for the next few years from proven reserves, so I'm sure there are plenty of people scaling up for production from new sites.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    Let's put it this way: Would Panasonic have achieved just as much for EVs if it had made the partnership with any other carmaker? To me it's been obvious that the other carmakers were dragged into the EV race, and they would've rather not see it happen at all. It's quite hilarious seeing around the time the Model S came out and soon after, how the other car makers were still "one-upping" each other with 65-mile range, 70, 75, 80 - by continuing to repackage gas-powered car platforms into EVs. And those were the "full EV" versions, not the hybrid ones or whatnot. Those still had like 20-30 mile ranges in their batteries. I think it would've taken at least another 15 years until one of them would've decided to just rethink an EV from scratch. Their love was status quo was all too obvious. There are some who say Apple is Messiah on Earth and they've invented all smartphone features and they deserve to ask $2,000 for an iPhone (see latest iPhone thread for such opinions). I completely disagree with those, even though I was one of the "fanbois" preaching an iPhone in the "Nokia is still king" days. And then there are others who say Apple invented and innovated nothing. zero. nada. And the smartphone industry would've progressed in exactly the same way without them, too. I say that's also bullcrap. Not only did Apple completely change the mobile phone landscape, but it has pretty much changed it every year afterwards (see the wave of "retina displays", or fingerprint auth, or 2x optical zoom from last year - all being adopted at a rapid pace by everyone soon after Apple did it). I see opinions about Tesla split the same way. In my mind, Tesla is the first successful car company in 100 years to not just exist and survive but to reshape the car industry. They haven't invented everything either, but I give them a lot of credit for the awareness EVs have now (and will have in the next few years). I guess my point is you don't have to have extreme opinions about a company in order to give it the credit that it's due.
  - LeifCarrotson 9y ago
    Tesla is much, much sexier and better at PR than Panasonic.
- honestoHeminway 9y ago
  Teslas main archievment is the car as a plattform. Its not something eternally fixed, like a glued together, mcu tailored product by other car-company, but something that can update - and may one day run apps - like your phone.
olyjohn 9y ago
You mention the superior driving experience. Are you talking about a Mistubishi i-MiEV or a Model S here? Your experience with a Model S isn't just because it's electric, it's also a really expensive car. I somehow doubt that if you drove the Mistubishi, you would say the same thing.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I have a CLA250 loaner while my Model S is in the shop, and the drivetrain is just amazingly atrocious. Now, it's not fair to compare it to a Model S, but a Model 3 has a similar price to the CLA250 but will drive like the Model S. (I have an 85, not one of the crazy performance models. Its published 0-60 is about the same as the Model 3's.) After driving an EV for a while, this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service. You push the accelerator and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and finally the car starts to go.
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    What you experience in the CLA250 is a combination of turbo lag and an electronic throttle optimizing for low fuel consumption. There should be an option where you can engage sport mode to increase the throttle response and also prevent the gearbox from selecting a high gear to keep revs low. I drive a car with the VW EA888 2.0 (230BHP@4000RPM, 370lb-ft@1600RPM) and it is possible to have near immediate throttle response and pull provided you're familiar with the gear ratios and power curve of the car. However, it's also a manual, so I don't have the disadvantage of being caught out in the wrong gear.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I'll have to give it a try in sport mode this afternoon and see how much better it is. "Near immediate" sounds an awful lot like "near pregnant" though.
      - funnelsgun 9y ago
        You'll find that it will cause the car to hold gears almost up to redline, which isn't great in traffic or when cruising. Whenever I drive an automatic, I ALWAYS use the paddle shifters and put the gearbox into manual mode so I have complete control over gearing.
wil421 9y ago
What has Telsa done that is completely novel? Telsa looks just like another car company. You mentioned Daimler pioneering the ICE but where are the Telsa inventions? I think Telsa's greatest contribution will be moving the electric car and renewable markets. Whether or not the company itself will be successful is yet to be seen. To me they only make products that are affordable by the rich but they've certainly been successful in moving markets.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >>What has Telsa done that is completely novel? They've pushed battery technology further than any other manufacturer in the last decade. And furthermore, "they've been successful in moving markets" is a novel thing in itself. >>To me they only make cars that are affordable by the rich but they've certainly been successful in moving markets. What do you think the first people said about Daimler?
  - wil421 9y ago
    The car and engine were just being invented in Daimlers time. Both batteries and cars have over a 100 years of work before Telsa was stated. They use lithium batteries. You could even buy the same types of cells on amazon that Telsa uses, 18650.
    - icelancer 9y ago
      >>You could even buy the same types of cells on amazon that Telsa uses, 18650. This is a lot like saying you can buy the same food resources that go into world class restaurants. Technically true, yes. But does not diminish the accomplishments of Tesla in the least.
      - fleitz 9y ago
        Exactly, just like that uninventive louse they are named after. Wires? Existed before. Magnets? Long history. Rotating fields? Over 75 years old at that point. All he did was come up with a winding pattern. Pfft, big deal.
mpweiher 9y ago
> company that pioneered the automotive gasoline engine. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler Correct company, wrong guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Benz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Benz Daimler invented the motorcycle, Benz the car. Daimler and Benz merged to form Daimler-Benz.
fencepost 9y ago
Regarding Tesla's network, they've added a location (not yet active as of last night's grocery run) at a Meijer near me with probably 10+ charging stations along with some fairly hefty looking power cabinets.
King-Aaron 9y ago
> a superior driving experience most of the time. I think that objectively that is still some time off, however I am not disagreeing that modern EV's are a "good" experience at any stretch. Once they work out how to lessen the weight behind the batteries, you'll get the driving experience comparable and beyond modern performance cars - but while the EV's have huge torque etc they still feel quite heavy in the corners, and don't deliver the same kind of driving experience for someone who values handling dynamics. I mean, a P100D can slaughter most factory cars off the line, but my mx5 (miata) track car still eats them on a technical circuit.

_up 9y ago

Tesla compares probably more to the developer of the modern Tire. I think their main innovation is mass producing batteries. And I also believe that car ownership in Cities is going away with self driving cars. Google will probably go for offering free rides for sponsored destinations and become a major portal to the offline world.

tonyhb 9y ago
Isn't that Panasonic, who have been making batteries for decades? I love Tesla as much as the rest, though I feel that Panasonic's expertise may be understated in the Tesla partnership. Though I may be very ignorant.
- ckastner 9y ago
  I, too, am under that impression, in general. In particular, however, there is one notable source that emphasizes Panasonic's role: Tesla's SEC filings. Quoting TSLA's 2015 10-K[1]: We believe that the Gigafactory will allow us to achieve a significant reduction in the cost of our battery packs once we are in volume production with Model 3. The total capital expenditures associated with the Gigafactory through 2020 are expected to be $4 to $5 billion, of which approximately $2 billion is expected to come from Tesla. Panasonic has agreed to partner with us on the Gigafactory with investments in production equipment that it will use to manufacture and supply us with battery cells. We have a supply agreement with Panasonic that, among other things, allows us to purchase a minimum of 1.8 billion lithium-ion battery cells at preferential prices that we intend to purchase from 2014 through 2017. We have agreed to prepare and provide the land, buildings and utilities, invest in production equipment for battery module and pack production and be responsible for the overall management of the Gigafactory. [1] https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000156459016013195/tsla-10k_20151231.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1318605/000156459016...
- _up 9y ago
  If people go from owning a cellphone battery with 4 Wh to a 65.000 Wh car battery and a 20.000 Wh home battery, battery production have to be extremely increased.
  - epistasis 9y ago
    Yes, there are massive investments from many companies in expanding the battery production industry. Gigafactory 1, in Reno, is a $5B capital investment that aims to produce 50GWh of batteries in 2018, and if they get $100/kWh in 2018, far lower than current prices, then yearly revenue is the same as the cost of Gigafactory 1. So there's tons of room to grow lithium ion manufacturing capacity. That's only one part of the supply chain though... Looking just at lithium, there seems to be somewhat ample supply for the next few years from proven reserves, so I'm sure there are plenty of people scaling up for production from new sites.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Let's put it this way: Would Panasonic have achieved just as much for EVs if it had made the partnership with any other carmaker? To me it's been obvious that the other carmakers were dragged into the EV race, and they would've rather not see it happen at all. It's quite hilarious seeing around the time the Model S came out and soon after, how the other car makers were still "one-upping" each other with 65-mile range, 70, 75, 80 - by continuing to repackage gas-powered car platforms into EVs. And those were the "full EV" versions, not the hybrid ones or whatnot. Those still had like 20-30 mile ranges in their batteries. I think it would've taken at least another 15 years until one of them would've decided to just rethink an EV from scratch. Their love was status quo was all too obvious. There are some who say Apple is Messiah on Earth and they've invented all smartphone features and they deserve to ask $2,000 for an iPhone (see latest iPhone thread for such opinions). I completely disagree with those, even though I was one of the "fanbois" preaching an iPhone in the "Nokia is still king" days. And then there are others who say Apple invented and innovated nothing. zero. nada. And the smartphone industry would've progressed in exactly the same way without them, too. I say that's also bullcrap. Not only did Apple completely change the mobile phone landscape, but it has pretty much changed it every year afterwards (see the wave of "retina displays", or fingerprint auth, or 2x optical zoom from last year - all being adopted at a rapid pace by everyone soon after Apple did it). I see opinions about Tesla split the same way. In my mind, Tesla is the first successful car company in 100 years to not just exist and survive but to reshape the car industry. They haven't invented everything either, but I give them a lot of credit for the awareness EVs have now (and will have in the next few years). I guess my point is you don't have to have extreme opinions about a company in order to give it the credit that it's due.
- LeifCarrotson 9y ago
  Tesla is much, much sexier and better at PR than Panasonic.
honestoHeminway 9y ago
Teslas main archievment is the car as a plattform. Its not something eternally fixed, like a glued together, mcu tailored product by other car-company, but something that can update - and may one day run apps - like your phone.

olyjohn 9y ago

You mention the superior driving experience. Are you talking about a Mistubishi i-MiEV or a Model S here? Your experience with a Model S isn't just because it's electric, it's also a really expensive car. I somehow doubt that if you drove the Mistubishi, you would say the same thing.

mikeash 9y ago
I have a CLA250 loaner while my Model S is in the shop, and the drivetrain is just amazingly atrocious. Now, it's not fair to compare it to a Model S, but a Model 3 has a similar price to the CLA250 but will drive like the Model S. (I have an 85, not one of the crazy performance models. Its published 0-60 is about the same as the Model 3's.) After driving an EV for a while, this Mercedes feels like the accelerator is hooked up to the engine through the postal service. You push the accelerator and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and finally the car starts to go.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  What you experience in the CLA250 is a combination of turbo lag and an electronic throttle optimizing for low fuel consumption. There should be an option where you can engage sport mode to increase the throttle response and also prevent the gearbox from selecting a high gear to keep revs low. I drive a car with the VW EA888 2.0 (230BHP@4000RPM, 370lb-ft@1600RPM) and it is possible to have near immediate throttle response and pull provided you're familiar with the gear ratios and power curve of the car. However, it's also a manual, so I don't have the disadvantage of being caught out in the wrong gear.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I'll have to give it a try in sport mode this afternoon and see how much better it is. "Near immediate" sounds an awful lot like "near pregnant" though.
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      You'll find that it will cause the car to hold gears almost up to redline, which isn't great in traffic or when cruising. Whenever I drive an automatic, I ALWAYS use the paddle shifters and put the gearbox into manual mode so I have complete control over gearing.

wil421 9y ago

What has Telsa done that is completely novel? Telsa looks just like another car company. You mentioned Daimler pioneering the ICE but where are the Telsa inventions? I think Telsa's greatest contribution will be moving the electric car and renewable markets. Whether or not the company itself will be successful is yet to be seen. To me they only make products that are affordable by the rich but they've certainly been successful in moving markets.

icelancer 9y ago
>>What has Telsa done that is completely novel? They've pushed battery technology further than any other manufacturer in the last decade. And furthermore, "they've been successful in moving markets" is a novel thing in itself. >>To me they only make cars that are affordable by the rich but they've certainly been successful in moving markets. What do you think the first people said about Daimler?
- wil421 9y ago
  The car and engine were just being invented in Daimlers time. Both batteries and cars have over a 100 years of work before Telsa was stated. They use lithium batteries. You could even buy the same types of cells on amazon that Telsa uses, 18650.
  - icelancer 9y ago
    >>You could even buy the same types of cells on amazon that Telsa uses, 18650. This is a lot like saying you can buy the same food resources that go into world class restaurants. Technically true, yes. But does not diminish the accomplishments of Tesla in the least.
    - fleitz 9y ago
      Exactly, just like that uninventive louse they are named after. Wires? Existed before. Magnets? Long history. Rotating fields? Over 75 years old at that point. All he did was come up with a winding pattern. Pfft, big deal.

mpweiher 9y ago

> company that pioneered the automotive gasoline engine. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottlieb_Daimler Correct company, wrong guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Benz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Benz Daimler invented the motorcycle, Benz the car. Daimler and Benz merged to form Daimler-Benz.

fencepost 9y ago

Regarding Tesla's network, they've added a location (not yet active as of last night's grocery run) at a Meijer near me with probably 10+ charging stations along with some fairly hefty looking power cabinets.

King-Aaron 9y ago

> a superior driving experience most of the time. I think that objectively that is still some time off, however I am not disagreeing that modern EV's are a "good" experience at any stretch. Once they work out how to lessen the weight behind the batteries, you'll get the driving experience comparable and beyond modern performance cars - but while the EV's have huge torque etc they still feel quite heavy in the corners, and don't deliver the same kind of driving experience for someone who values handling dynamics. I mean, a P100D can slaughter most factory cars off the line, but my mx5 (miata) track car still eats them on a technical circuit.