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> ...the lack of proper accountability The complaint in the linked article is about burial practices. That's a psychological, cultural, or theological complain

> ...the lack of proper accountability The complaint in the linked article is about burial practices. That's a psychological, cultural, or theological complaint, right? Also, even if the burial practices were unconscionable, why write off all religious institutions with those kinds of anecdotes and ignore the mountains of atrocities committed by state-run institutions?

pjc50 9y ago
No, it's not about burial practices. It's about birth-to-burial without registration, and without any investigation of the context. Mass infanticide by negligence. What happened was that young unmarried women in Ireland were forcibly institutionalised, separated from their children, told the children would be put up for adoption, and not told when the children died due to the neglect of the institution. Where the children survived, the church tended to hinder contact between adoptees and birth mothers even when it was wanted by both sides. And this is inseperable from the religious context of punishing the "sinning" women. A problem which is still ongoing in the fight for abortion access in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  I'd upvote but for the call for the last two sentences. It sounds like "if only we could abort these kids, they would have never been treated this way."
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Well, yes. Ultimately it comes down to forcing teenage girls to carry pregnancies to term (resulting in a range of potential complications including death) versus the availability of abortion. Also the incredible cynicism of having a ""pro life"" organization that only cares about unborn lives.
    - benjohnson 9y ago
      In my opinion, the solution to people being mistreated shouldn't be to take their life.
      - opportune 9y ago
        In my opinion, I think it is a bit of a stretch to equate aborting a fetus to taking a human life.
        benjohnson 9y ago
        I'm going on a scientific definition: The capacity to grow, metabolize, respond (etc) + Human DNA = human life.
norswap 9y ago
The subtext is that many of these children died from lack of proper care. That's what I have heard, so don't quote me on that. Some simple searches should unearth a lot more information.
icebraining 9y ago
The Church and the State often work together in these atrocities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism
virtuabhi 9y ago
Are you aware of this case - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar , http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741 ? "Savita, pregnant at 17 weeks with her first baby, went to the hospital with her husband Praveen on 21 October 2012 complaining about back pain. Her water broke early on the morning of 22 October and Savita asked if anything could be done to save the baby. She was told that the miscarriage was inevitable. On 23 October, having understood the baby would not survive, she asked for a termination, and was told it was not legally possible in Ireland while there is a foetal heartbeat. Midwife manager Ann Maria Burke attempted to calm an upset Savita and explained that the termination cannot be carried out because Ireland is "a Catholic country", a statement she later said was not meant in a hurtful way and a statement that she was sorry for making if it sounded bad afterward. In preparation for a termination on 24 October, Savita delivered a stillborn girl. At 1:09am, on Sunday 28 October, Savita died.[3][4][5][6][7][8]"
- snambi 9y ago
  State and Church should be separate.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Are you aware of this case... How is it relevant? It was in a university hospital in a country with a secular government that legally allows terminating pregnancies to save the life of the mother. There wasn't a Church-run social institution unless I missed something.

pjc50 9y ago

No, it's not about burial practices. It's about birth-to-burial without registration, and without any investigation of the context. Mass infanticide by negligence. What happened was that young unmarried women in Ireland were forcibly institutionalised, separated from their children, told the children would be put up for adoption, and not told when the children died due to the neglect of the institution. Where the children survived, the church tended to hinder contact between adoptees and birth mothers even when it was wanted by both sides. And this is inseperable from the religious context of punishing the "sinning" women. A problem which is still ongoing in the fight for abortion access in Ireland and Northern Ireland.

humanrebar 9y ago
I'd upvote but for the call for the last two sentences. It sounds like "if only we could abort these kids, they would have never been treated this way."
- pjc50 9y ago
  Well, yes. Ultimately it comes down to forcing teenage girls to carry pregnancies to term (resulting in a range of potential complications including death) versus the availability of abortion. Also the incredible cynicism of having a ""pro life"" organization that only cares about unborn lives.
  - benjohnson 9y ago
    In my opinion, the solution to people being mistreated shouldn't be to take their life.
    - opportune 9y ago
      In my opinion, I think it is a bit of a stretch to equate aborting a fetus to taking a human life.
      - benjohnson 9y ago
        I'm going on a scientific definition: The capacity to grow, metabolize, respond (etc) + Human DNA = human life.

norswap 9y ago

The subtext is that many of these children died from lack of proper care. That's what I have heard, so don't quote me on that. Some simple searches should unearth a lot more information.

icebraining 9y ago

The Church and the State often work together in these atrocities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_children_of_Francoism

virtuabhi 9y ago

Are you aware of this case - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar , http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741 ? "Savita, pregnant at 17 weeks with her first baby, went to the hospital with her husband Praveen on 21 October 2012 complaining about back pain. Her water broke early on the morning of 22 October and Savita asked if anything could be done to save the baby. She was told that the miscarriage was inevitable. On 23 October, having understood the baby would not survive, she asked for a termination, and was told it was not legally possible in Ireland while there is a foetal heartbeat. Midwife manager Ann Maria Burke attempted to calm an upset Savita and explained that the termination cannot be carried out because Ireland is "a Catholic country", a statement she later said was not meant in a hurtful way and a statement that she was sorry for making if it sounded bad afterward. In preparation for a termination on 24 October, Savita delivered a stillborn girl. At 1:09am, on Sunday 28 October, Savita died.[3][4][5][6][7][8]"

snambi 9y ago
State and Church should be separate.
humanrebar 9y ago
> Are you aware of this case... How is it relevant? It was in a university hospital in a country with a secular government that legally allows terminating pregnancies to save the life of the mother. There wasn't a Church-run social institution unless I missed something.