8 ms·

Closer in time, you have the outsized role still played by the Catholic Church in countries like Italy and Spain, where it runs not just churches and monasterie

by T-A 9y ago

Closer in time, you have the outsized role still played by the Catholic Church in countries like Italy and Spain, where it runs not just churches and monasteries but social housing, preschools, and savings & loans associations. Turning to the really bizarre, we have "The Transhumanist Wager", a supposedly best-selling recent rehash of "Atlas Shrugged" (complete with "A is A") featuring as the main villain a religious movement which builds churches with attached housing where the faithful can live at low or no cost. Not recommended, unless you are meta enough to enjoy atrociously bad writing for the giggles.

humanrebar 9y ago
> social housing, preschools, and savings & loans associations Those all sound like laudable charities. What about that is "outsized"?
- yorwba 9y ago
  It's outsized for a single organization that tends to attach its own package of values to everything. If a Muslim organization were to provide similar charity at similar scale, I'm pretty sure it would be interpreted as failure of the state. I'm not opposed to religious charity per se, but when it goes to church-run organizations, there tends to be a bit of missionaryizing on the side.
  - LyndsySimon 9y ago
    > If a Muslim organization were to provide similar charity at similar scale I was under the impression that Muslim organizations do provide these services at a similar scale.
    - vidarh 9y ago
      Hamas being a notable example, where their non-military wing runs hospitals and schools and the like. It's a large part of the explanation for their support. And if the West had paid attention, we might also have realised that the best way of overcoming groups like Hamas is to strip them of the halo that comes from these services: Improve social services in areas where these kind organisations operate - just like we did in the West - and their recruitment base will diminish.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Why would you think it's a matter of lack of comprehension? In such a disproportionate conflict, the vulnerability of the West is local popular opinion. The fact that the population supports Hamas is a great way to justify repressive measures.
        vidarh 9y ago
        Because I regularly come across people who are utterly confused over how anyone could support these groups, because they believe the only thing they do is terror.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      And the states where they do it tend to be regarded as failures in the West. I was talking more in the context of the European countries named, where the usual expectation is that no charity should be required to provide these services.
pjc50 9y ago
Or Ireland. People ask "what is wrong with the Church running social institutions", and the answer is the lack of proper accountability. In the worst case you end up with a mass grave of babies. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-babies-and-children-found-at-tuam-orphanage-in-ireland https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-...
- rsynnott 9y ago
  The Church in Ireland still runs a lot of schools (at least nominally; they're generally mostly or entirely _paid_ for by the state and have to adhere to the national curriculum and so on). Not other social services these days, though, and certainly not social housing.
  - pluma 9y ago
    The Church in Germany (churches actually, the Protestant alliance is about as large as the Catholic church) goes beyond that by not only having their schools, hospitals and so on de facto paid for by the state (always in part, sometimes 100%) but also getting to impose their own laws on their employees instead of having to adhere to the secular labour laws. Had an abortion? Came out as gay? Got a divorce? If you work for a "Catholic" hospital that can easily result in the termination of your employment even if your salary comes 100% from the state and this discrimination would be illegal if the hospital were secular. It's a widespread misconception (even within Germany) that Germany is a secular nation or has a separation of church and state. That no single religious group is formally given exclusive privileges or that we're not under the direct rule of any religious leader doesn't change that fact.
    - snambi 9y ago
      Is Germany a secular nation?
    - rsynnott 9y ago
      This was legal in Ireland until very recently with Church-run schools (for teaching staff only). Though with some restrictions; notably, a gay woman who was a teacher was passed over for promotion to principal because she was gay; when investigated, the school's defense was that she was gay. They lost; the view was taken that while they could have refused to employ her for that reason they couldn't otherwise discriminate against her. Fortunately, the law was changed in 2015; church-run schools can no longer discriminate on 'ethos' in employment. Incidentally, this wasn't just the Catholic Church; any religious organisation who ran a school got to discriminate until then.
gadders 9y ago
>>Closer in time, you have the outsized role still played by the Catholic Church in countries like Italy and Spain, When I think of religion having a toxic effect on a state I think Saudi Arabia, not Spain.
- thephyber 9y ago
  The quote you responded to said "closer in time", not "modern day". Francisco Franco (Spanish fascist nationalist) controlled the country until the late 1970s. The toxic effect on non-Catholics in recent Spainish history was Franco[1], rather than the religion, but it's sometimes hard to make the distinction when non-believers are killed and repressed and the church is silent[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Catholicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Catholicism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Spain

by T-A 9y ago

humanrebar 9y ago

> social housing, preschools, and savings & loans associations Those all sound like laudable charities. What about that is "outsized"?

yorwba 9y ago
It's outsized for a single organization that tends to attach its own package of values to everything. If a Muslim organization were to provide similar charity at similar scale, I'm pretty sure it would be interpreted as failure of the state. I'm not opposed to religious charity per se, but when it goes to church-run organizations, there tends to be a bit of missionaryizing on the side.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  > If a Muslim organization were to provide similar charity at similar scale I was under the impression that Muslim organizations do provide these services at a similar scale.
  - vidarh 9y ago
    Hamas being a notable example, where their non-military wing runs hospitals and schools and the like. It's a large part of the explanation for their support. And if the West had paid attention, we might also have realised that the best way of overcoming groups like Hamas is to strip them of the halo that comes from these services: Improve social services in areas where these kind organisations operate - just like we did in the West - and their recruitment base will diminish.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Why would you think it's a matter of lack of comprehension? In such a disproportionate conflict, the vulnerability of the West is local popular opinion. The fact that the population supports Hamas is a great way to justify repressive measures.
      - vidarh 9y ago
        Because I regularly come across people who are utterly confused over how anyone could support these groups, because they believe the only thing they do is terror.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    And the states where they do it tend to be regarded as failures in the West. I was talking more in the context of the European countries named, where the usual expectation is that no charity should be required to provide these services.

pjc50 9y ago

Or Ireland. People ask "what is wrong with the Church running social institutions", and the answer is the lack of proper accountability. In the worst case you end up with a mass grave of babies. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-babies-and-children-found-at-tuam-orphanage-in-ireland https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/mass-grave-of-...

rsynnott 9y ago
The Church in Ireland still runs a lot of schools (at least nominally; they're generally mostly or entirely _paid_ for by the state and have to adhere to the national curriculum and so on). Not other social services these days, though, and certainly not social housing.
- pluma 9y ago
  The Church in Germany (churches actually, the Protestant alliance is about as large as the Catholic church) goes beyond that by not only having their schools, hospitals and so on de facto paid for by the state (always in part, sometimes 100%) but also getting to impose their own laws on their employees instead of having to adhere to the secular labour laws. Had an abortion? Came out as gay? Got a divorce? If you work for a "Catholic" hospital that can easily result in the termination of your employment even if your salary comes 100% from the state and this discrimination would be illegal if the hospital were secular. It's a widespread misconception (even within Germany) that Germany is a secular nation or has a separation of church and state. That no single religious group is formally given exclusive privileges or that we're not under the direct rule of any religious leader doesn't change that fact.
  - snambi 9y ago
    Is Germany a secular nation?
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    This was legal in Ireland until very recently with Church-run schools (for teaching staff only). Though with some restrictions; notably, a gay woman who was a teacher was passed over for promotion to principal because she was gay; when investigated, the school's defense was that she was gay. They lost; the view was taken that while they could have refused to employ her for that reason they couldn't otherwise discriminate against her. Fortunately, the law was changed in 2015; church-run schools can no longer discriminate on 'ethos' in employment. Incidentally, this wasn't just the Catholic Church; any religious organisation who ran a school got to discriminate until then.

gadders 9y ago

>>Closer in time, you have the outsized role still played by the Catholic Church in countries like Italy and Spain, When I think of religion having a toxic effect on a state I think Saudi Arabia, not Spain.

thephyber 9y ago
The quote you responded to said "closer in time", not "modern day". Francisco Franco (Spanish fascist nationalist) controlled the country until the late 1970s. The toxic effect on non-Catholics in recent Spainish history was Franco[1], rather than the religion, but it's sometimes hard to make the distinction when non-believers are killed and repressed and the church is silent[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Catholicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain#Catholicism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Spain