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Woz has spent decades teaching 5th graders. He donated most of his money to the school district he worked with. My bias might be showing, but this seems a lot b

by andreyf 16y ago

Woz has spent decades teaching 5th graders. He donated most of his money to the school district he worked with. My bias might be showing, but this seems a lot better approach to education than throwing money at it like the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation: Starting in 2000, the Gates Foundation spent hundreds of millions of dollars on its first big project, trying to revitalize U.S. high schools by making them smaller, only to discover that student body size has little effect on achievement. [1] At the expense of sounding like a troll, it amazes me that throwing tons of money at problems is commonly accepted as a noble thing. What we're lacking isn't money, it's imagination - we need new ideas for measuring achievement and improving education, and while economic power can act as a catalyst to implementing such changes, it's in no way sufficient for making a lasting positive impact on its own. 1. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_30/b4188058281758.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_30/b41880582...

parallax7d 16y ago
Not only does gates throw lots of money at problems, they follow up the results with effectiveness studies.
- andreyf 16y ago
  And what makes his definition of "effectiveness" any good? When goals are as clear as "maximize profit", I have no doubt Bill Gates is one of the most competent in the field. However, when it's as vague as "improve education", I have serious doubts. I'd trust a passionate fifth grade teacher to make good judgements of what's best for their students' education over a billionaire entrepreneur any day.
  - edanm 16y ago
    I'm guessing a portion of that money is going towards "passionate 5th grade teachers", giving them the chance to use their expertise and imagination to improve education. Bill Gates is, at the very least, very smart. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he's spending his considerable net worth in a way that helps.
  - anigbrowl 16y ago
    Where do you think the mantra of 'smaller class sizes = better education' came from in the first place? Though I don't doubt the advice was was honestly intended, teachers do have an economic interest in reducing class sizes (as it increases demand for their educational skills and accordingly, wages). It's got to be easier to teach 10 kids than 20, and we generally feel we're more productive when we're not overly stressed, the economic implications of the 'small is beautiful' policy were incidental or even unconscious [1]. So, the Gates foundation spent a lot of money discovering that this has little real effect on educational outcomes. I don't regard that as a waste - it may have been an expensive lesson, but I presume the money was spent on subsidizing smaller class sizes in schools. The understanding we've gained will save many billions of taxpayer dollars from being spent on a widespread but mistaken belief about teacher:student ratios, which is a significant public good. [1] I say 'were', because now that we have evidence of the policy's ineffectiveness, many teachers' union members have designated the Gates Foundation and Obama's education secretary as evil corporatists out to wreck public education.
    - andreyf 16y ago
      I don't regard that as a waste - it may have been an expensive lesson, but I presume the money was spent on subsidizing smaller class sizes in schools. I can assure you that when a smart teacher who spends every day with kids says one thing about what's better for their education, and the Gates' Foundation's research says another, I have trouble seeing the validity of the latter. What I'm saying is that yes, smaller class sizes are a requisite for a better education. Have you ever been in a classroom?
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        > Have you ever been in a classroom? Are you suggesting Anigbrowl does not have any education ?
        andreyf 16y ago
        No, I'm suggesting he's a little too quick in believing the "scientific method" over people with direct experience in a classroom.
  - crystalis 16y ago
    "I'd assume my conclusion any day over considering that maybe my hero isn't also the best hero of all."
  - mistermann 16y ago
    > However, when it's as vague as "improve education", I have serious doubts. It's fun and provocative to say, but do you really feel (or, I should say, think) this way? I could maybe understand if you were talking about, for example, the CEO of CitiCorp, who really doesn't give a shit about anything (compare his background vs, that of Bill Gates). But are you actually calling out Bill Gates, and saying he's not legitimately trying to accomplish something good for the lesser blessed people in the world? Do you think he's in it for the publicity? > I'd trust a passionate fifth grade teacher to make good judgements of what's best for their students' education over a billionaire entrepreneur any day. Well, I don't know what to say about this. Do you actually have children, so that you've actually had to sit down and think about these types of things?
misterbwong 16y ago
This doesn't compute to me. What Woz is doing sounds similar to what the Gates' are doing. They are both working to improve the world in their own way. You haven't given any real reasons why one approach (teaching 5th graders) is better than the other (running a multi-billion dollar foundation). I'm not arguing that one is better than the other-just that they are different. Also, as you pointed out, they are both "throwing their money at it"-the only difference is the destination. As a side note, you speak as if it's obvious that a smaller student body (and class size) doesn't equate to higher achievement. This knowledge may be more commonplace now, but the premise that smaller student bodies do equate to higher achievement has been one of the basics of school reform and school funding for some time now. Finding out the fact that this is actually a flawed assumption has a huge effect on public policy and spending on schools in the future. Maybe it's just me, but I'm glad the Gates foundation "wasted" their money finding this out because it's better than the US state and local governments continually spending (in aggregate) billions of dollars in taxpayer money on an improvement based on a flawed theory. Ideally the government would have realized this on its own much earlier, but you know how that goes....

by andreyf 16y ago

parallax7d 16y ago

Not only does gates throw lots of money at problems, they follow up the results with effectiveness studies.

andreyf 16y ago
And what makes his definition of "effectiveness" any good? When goals are as clear as "maximize profit", I have no doubt Bill Gates is one of the most competent in the field. However, when it's as vague as "improve education", I have serious doubts. I'd trust a passionate fifth grade teacher to make good judgements of what's best for their students' education over a billionaire entrepreneur any day.
- edanm 16y ago
  I'm guessing a portion of that money is going towards "passionate 5th grade teachers", giving them the chance to use their expertise and imagination to improve education. Bill Gates is, at the very least, very smart. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he's spending his considerable net worth in a way that helps.
- anigbrowl 16y ago
  Where do you think the mantra of 'smaller class sizes = better education' came from in the first place? Though I don't doubt the advice was was honestly intended, teachers do have an economic interest in reducing class sizes (as it increases demand for their educational skills and accordingly, wages). It's got to be easier to teach 10 kids than 20, and we generally feel we're more productive when we're not overly stressed, the economic implications of the 'small is beautiful' policy were incidental or even unconscious [1]. So, the Gates foundation spent a lot of money discovering that this has little real effect on educational outcomes. I don't regard that as a waste - it may have been an expensive lesson, but I presume the money was spent on subsidizing smaller class sizes in schools. The understanding we've gained will save many billions of taxpayer dollars from being spent on a widespread but mistaken belief about teacher:student ratios, which is a significant public good. [1] I say 'were', because now that we have evidence of the policy's ineffectiveness, many teachers' union members have designated the Gates Foundation and Obama's education secretary as evil corporatists out to wreck public education.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    I don't regard that as a waste - it may have been an expensive lesson, but I presume the money was spent on subsidizing smaller class sizes in schools. I can assure you that when a smart teacher who spends every day with kids says one thing about what's better for their education, and the Gates' Foundation's research says another, I have trouble seeing the validity of the latter. What I'm saying is that yes, smaller class sizes are a requisite for a better education. Have you ever been in a classroom?
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      > Have you ever been in a classroom? Are you suggesting Anigbrowl does not have any education ?
      - andreyf 16y ago
        No, I'm suggesting he's a little too quick in believing the "scientific method" over people with direct experience in a classroom.
- crystalis 16y ago
  "I'd assume my conclusion any day over considering that maybe my hero isn't also the best hero of all."
- mistermann 16y ago
  > However, when it's as vague as "improve education", I have serious doubts. It's fun and provocative to say, but do you really feel (or, I should say, think) this way? I could maybe understand if you were talking about, for example, the CEO of CitiCorp, who really doesn't give a shit about anything (compare his background vs, that of Bill Gates). But are you actually calling out Bill Gates, and saying he's not legitimately trying to accomplish something good for the lesser blessed people in the world? Do you think he's in it for the publicity? > I'd trust a passionate fifth grade teacher to make good judgements of what's best for their students' education over a billionaire entrepreneur any day. Well, I don't know what to say about this. Do you actually have children, so that you've actually had to sit down and think about these types of things?

misterbwong 16y ago

This doesn't compute to me. What Woz is doing sounds similar to what the Gates' are doing. They are both working to improve the world in their own way. You haven't given any real reasons why one approach (teaching 5th graders) is better than the other (running a multi-billion dollar foundation). I'm not arguing that one is better than the other-just that they are different. Also, as you pointed out, they are both "throwing their money at it"-the only difference is the destination. As a side note, you speak as if it's obvious that a smaller student body (and class size) doesn't equate to higher achievement. This knowledge may be more commonplace now, but the premise that smaller student bodies do equate to higher achievement has been one of the basics of school reform and school funding for some time now. Finding out the fact that this is actually a flawed assumption has a huge effect on public policy and spending on schools in the future. Maybe it's just me, but I'm glad the Gates foundation "wasted" their money finding this out because it's better than the US state and local governments continually spending (in aggregate) billions of dollars in taxpayer money on an improvement based on a flawed theory. Ideally the government would have realized this on its own much earlier, but you know how that goes....