3 ms·

the noble/happy trap is closer to reality than the primitive/pitiable trap.

Retric 9y ago
Based on what objective measurement? Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. So, the general assumption that people are about as happy works across a huge range of lifestyles. On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue.
- blubb-fish 9y ago
  based f.x. on suicide statistics and common sense. measure your own well-being by spending a week programming vs spending a week in a hut in a forest.
  - Retric 9y ago
    I very much prefer a week programming so I don't think common sense has much to say. As to subside rates they are generally higher among tribes. However, it's been an enduring misconception that they are low.
- ivanhoe 9y ago
  Not necessarily, happiness (in a meaning of long lasting sense of personal satisfaction) is mainly about meeting the expectations (yours, of your family, peers, etc.). IMHO it primarily depends on to whom you choose to compare yourself. People in isolated environments have less peer competition and much lower expectations as everyone they know about is living the same way. If you and everyone you know expect to die at age 40, then it's merely a fact of life, like dying at 80s is for us. You don't think of it as injustice as you;re not aware of any other way. If you are poor your whole life, just like everyone around you, you still can feel extremely accomplished and successful in life, if you manage to get just a few chickens or a goat or more children or whatever more than your neighbors. It's one of the evils of the Internet that now we all compare ourself with the richest and the most successful people world-wide, and not just from within our local communities as before. I know it makes me unhappy quite often. People who never been in civilization are probably more content with their lives, as what else could they wish for, other then what they already have? Of course, just statistically speaking of the whole population, each individual has it's own ups and downs and unique ways, jealousies and envies and everything...
  - Retric 9y ago
    There is actually a lot of happiness research so you don't need to stuck with gut feelings. The most shocking difference from expectations is happiness tends toward a steady state even after major life changes such as winning the lottery. People in prison for example are often happier than you might assume as long as their personal safety is not at issue and they can socialize.
- wu-ikkyu 9y ago
  >Based on what objective measurement Happiness is subjective, not objective. >Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. See Maslow's Hierarchy. >On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue. What do you mean "objectively an issue"? One does not need to live a long life to live a fullfilling life. Many of these tribal socities have survived far longer than other civilized societies because they live in equilibrium with their environment.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Research disagrees, you can measure happiness of other people. Much like you can test for depression even if the difference is not subjectively obvious.
    - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
      >Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. There are no objective biological tests for depression (or happiness), the psychiatric diagnosis relies exclusively on subjective observations (i.e. asking the person about their feelings). >"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests." -Allen Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances The idea of happiness as a purely material objective phenomenon has been complicit in the exploitation and destruction of the Amazon and its inhabitants over the past centuries.
      - Retric 9y ago
        It's common to order blood tests when people show symptoms of depression. Hypothyroidism is the most common medical condition associated with depressive symptoms, but there are others. Depression is considered when people have a null result on those tests, therefore there are physical tests for depression. Just not in the way testing is normally thought of.
  - mcguire 9y ago

Based on what objective measurement? Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. So, the general assumption that people are about as happy works across a huge range of lifestyles. On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue.

blubb-fish 9y ago
based f.x. on suicide statistics and common sense. measure your own well-being by spending a week programming vs spending a week in a hut in a forest.
- Retric 9y ago
  I very much prefer a week programming so I don't think common sense has much to say. As to subside rates they are generally higher among tribes. However, it's been an enduring misconception that they are low.
ivanhoe 9y ago
Not necessarily, happiness (in a meaning of long lasting sense of personal satisfaction) is mainly about meeting the expectations (yours, of your family, peers, etc.). IMHO it primarily depends on to whom you choose to compare yourself. People in isolated environments have less peer competition and much lower expectations as everyone they know about is living the same way. If you and everyone you know expect to die at age 40, then it's merely a fact of life, like dying at 80s is for us. You don't think of it as injustice as you;re not aware of any other way. If you are poor your whole life, just like everyone around you, you still can feel extremely accomplished and successful in life, if you manage to get just a few chickens or a goat or more children or whatever more than your neighbors. It's one of the evils of the Internet that now we all compare ourself with the richest and the most successful people world-wide, and not just from within our local communities as before. I know it makes me unhappy quite often. People who never been in civilization are probably more content with their lives, as what else could they wish for, other then what they already have? Of course, just statistically speaking of the whole population, each individual has it's own ups and downs and unique ways, jealousies and envies and everything...
- Retric 9y ago
  There is actually a lot of happiness research so you don't need to stuck with gut feelings. The most shocking difference from expectations is happiness tends toward a steady state even after major life changes such as winning the lottery. People in prison for example are often happier than you might assume as long as their personal safety is not at issue and they can socialize.
wu-ikkyu 9y ago
>Based on what objective measurement Happiness is subjective, not objective. >Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. See Maslow's Hierarchy. >On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue. What do you mean "objectively an issue"? One does not need to live a long life to live a fullfilling life. Many of these tribal socities have survived far longer than other civilized societies because they live in equilibrium with their environment.
- Retric 9y ago
  Research disagrees, you can measure happiness of other people. Much like you can test for depression even if the difference is not subjectively obvious.
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    >Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. There are no objective biological tests for depression (or happiness), the psychiatric diagnosis relies exclusively on subjective observations (i.e. asking the person about their feelings). >"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests." -Allen Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances The idea of happiness as a purely material objective phenomenon has been complicit in the exploitation and destruction of the Amazon and its inhabitants over the past centuries.
    - Retric 9y ago
      It's common to order blood tests when people show symptoms of depression. Hypothyroidism is the most common medical condition associated with depressive symptoms, but there are others. Depression is considered when people have a null result on those tests, therefore there are physical tests for depression. Just not in the way testing is normally thought of.
- mcguire 9y ago