8 ms·

at the end of the day life is not about being impressive. life is about living. and I have not doubt those tribes are happier than 90% of the people belonging t

at the end of the day life is not about being impressive. life is about living. and I have not doubt those tribes are happier than 90% of the people belonging to advanced civilizations.

jackvalentine 9y ago
While I agree it's a possibility, let's be careful not to fall in to the noble/happy savage trap.
- blubb-fish 9y ago
  the noble/happy trap is closer to reality than the primitive/pitiable trap.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Based on what objective measurement? Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. So, the general assumption that people are about as happy works across a huge range of lifestyles. On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue.
    - blubb-fish 9y ago
      based f.x. on suicide statistics and common sense. measure your own well-being by spending a week programming vs spending a week in a hut in a forest.
      - Retric 9y ago
        I very much prefer a week programming so I don't think common sense has much to say. As to subside rates they are generally higher among tribes. However, it's been an enduring misconception that they are low.
    - ivanhoe 9y ago
      Not necessarily, happiness (in a meaning of long lasting sense of personal satisfaction) is mainly about meeting the expectations (yours, of your family, peers, etc.). IMHO it primarily depends on to whom you choose to compare yourself. People in isolated environments have less peer competition and much lower expectations as everyone they know about is living the same way. If you and everyone you know expect to die at age 40, then it's merely a fact of life, like dying at 80s is for us. You don't think of it as injustice as you;re not aware of any other way. If you are poor your whole life, just like everyone around you, you still can feel extremely accomplished and successful in life, if you manage to get just a few chickens or a goat or more children or whatever more than your neighbors. It's one of the evils of the Internet that now we all compare ourself with the richest and the most successful people world-wide, and not just from within our local communities as before. I know it makes me unhappy quite often. People who never been in civilization are probably more content with their lives, as what else could they wish for, other then what they already have? Of course, just statistically speaking of the whole population, each individual has it's own ups and downs and unique ways, jealousies and envies and everything...
      - Retric 9y ago
        There is actually a lot of happiness research so you don't need to stuck with gut feelings. The most shocking difference from expectations is happiness tends toward a steady state even after major life changes such as winning the lottery. People in prison for example are often happier than you might assume as long as their personal safety is not at issue and they can socialize.
    - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
      >Based on what objective measurement Happiness is subjective, not objective. >Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. See Maslow's Hierarchy. >On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue. What do you mean "objectively an issue"? One does not need to live a long life to live a fullfilling life. Many of these tribal socities have survived far longer than other civilized societies because they live in equilibrium with their environment.
      - Retric 9y ago
        Research disagrees, you can measure happiness of other people. Much like you can test for depression even if the difference is not subjectively obvious.
        wu-ikkyu 9y ago
        >Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. There are no objective biological tests for depression (or happiness), the psychiatric diagnosis relies exclusively on subjective observations (i.e. asking the person about their feelings). >"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests." -Allen Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances The idea of happiness as a purely material objective phenomenon has been complicit in the exploitation and destruction of the Amazon and its inhabitants over the past centuries.
        Retric 9y ago
        It's common to order blood tests when people show symptoms of depression. Hypothyroidism is the most common medical condition associated with depressive symptoms, but there are others. Depression is considered when people have a null result on those tests, therefore there are physical tests for depression. Just not in the way testing is normally thought of.
      - mcguire 9y ago
thret 9y ago
I'm reading 'The Fatal Shore' by Robert Hughes at the moment, it's description of the customs of one primitive tribe might lead you to question how happy the women are in those Amazon tribes.
grecy 9y ago
> I have not doubt those tribes are happier than 90% of the people belonging to advanced civilizations. I have just spent a year in 16 countries in West Africa. On the whole, people here are extremely happy / content / friendly. In all honesty, they make Canadians look unfriendly and unhappy. I know you strongly believe everything we have invented in the modern world makes us happier (almost everyone does) You really, really, REALLY need to see with you own eyes, not just listen to what you have been told.
- artursapek 9y ago
  > I know you strongly believe everything we have invented in the modern world makes us happier It also raises our threshold for happiness in the long term, and we spend more and more of our time working to sustain that. It's kind of like a never ending drug addiction. I'm not surprised to hear people living simpler lives appear happier.
- lloydde 9y ago
  @grecy you seem to have reversed the meaning of the parent post. You are strongly agreeing with the parent.
- Brockenstein 9y ago
  Happiness wasn't invented in the last decade of the 20th century... or at any arbitrary point in the development of civilization. Pretty much any time things aren't just horrible and desperate, people are more than capable of being happy. People are very adaptable in that regard. The other thing we tend to do as human beings is tell ourselves that people who are better off can't be (that much) happier. Or people who are better off convincing themselves that because their lives aren't perfect that all circumstances are essentially the same as far as happiness goes and that people with less or who are living closer to the edge are actually happier than they are. There's a wide range of circumstances people can live with and still find happiness. Very few of us have a hard requirement of being on the very top rung of the ladder to be happy. And there's no particular rung on the ladder where happiness becomes possible.
- bb101 9y ago
  Which countries or regions did you find the most happy and friendly? I'd love to hear about your experiences.
indubitable 9y ago
Imagine a refined form of lobotomization were possible such that the individual who underwent the treatment would be reduced to an infantile level of IQ. They would retain sufficient intelligence to maintain basic hygiene and preservation, but little beyond that. However, it also resulted in the subject of said procedure receiving enormous pleasure engaging in simple repetitive tasks - such as, for instance, flipping burgers. I would, in no way whatsoever, be interested in such a procedure and I think it's safe to say that applies to the vast majority. Thus, it must be presumed that the happiness of an individual or a group is not really a measurement of their 'fulfillment' even if it sounds like a reasonable premise in a vacuum.

at the end of the day life is not about being impressive. life is about living. and I have not doubt those tribes are happier than 90% of the people belonging to advanced civilizations.

jackvalentine 9y ago

While I agree it's a possibility, let's be careful not to fall in to the noble/happy savage trap.

blubb-fish 9y ago
the noble/happy trap is closer to reality than the primitive/pitiable trap.
- Retric 9y ago
  Based on what objective measurement? Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. So, the general assumption that people are about as happy works across a huge range of lifestyles. On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue.
  - blubb-fish 9y ago
    based f.x. on suicide statistics and common sense. measure your own well-being by spending a week programming vs spending a week in a hut in a forest.
    - Retric 9y ago
      I very much prefer a week programming so I don't think common sense has much to say. As to subside rates they are generally higher among tribes. However, it's been an enduring misconception that they are low.
  - ivanhoe 9y ago
    Not necessarily, happiness (in a meaning of long lasting sense of personal satisfaction) is mainly about meeting the expectations (yours, of your family, peers, etc.). IMHO it primarily depends on to whom you choose to compare yourself. People in isolated environments have less peer competition and much lower expectations as everyone they know about is living the same way. If you and everyone you know expect to die at age 40, then it's merely a fact of life, like dying at 80s is for us. You don't think of it as injustice as you;re not aware of any other way. If you are poor your whole life, just like everyone around you, you still can feel extremely accomplished and successful in life, if you manage to get just a few chickens or a goat or more children or whatever more than your neighbors. It's one of the evils of the Internet that now we all compare ourself with the richest and the most successful people world-wide, and not just from within our local communities as before. I know it makes me unhappy quite often. People who never been in civilization are probably more content with their lives, as what else could they wish for, other then what they already have? Of course, just statistically speaking of the whole population, each individual has it's own ups and downs and unique ways, jealousies and envies and everything...
    - Retric 9y ago
      There is actually a lot of happiness research so you don't need to stuck with gut feelings. The most shocking difference from expectations is happiness tends toward a steady state even after major life changes such as winning the lottery. People in prison for example are often happier than you might assume as long as their personal safety is not at issue and they can socialize.
  - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
    >Based on what objective measurement Happiness is subjective, not objective. >Happiness does not change much as long you can meet the basic needs for food / water / safety. See Maslow's Hierarchy. >On the other hand primitive lifestyles have significantly shorter lifespans which is objectively an issue. What do you mean "objectively an issue"? One does not need to live a long life to live a fullfilling life. Many of these tribal socities have survived far longer than other civilized societies because they live in equilibrium with their environment.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Research disagrees, you can measure happiness of other people. Much like you can test for depression even if the difference is not subjectively obvious.
      - wu-ikkyu 9y ago
        >Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. There are no objective biological tests for depression (or happiness), the psychiatric diagnosis relies exclusively on subjective observations (i.e. asking the person about their feelings). >"psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests." -Allen Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances The idea of happiness as a purely material objective phenomenon has been complicit in the exploitation and destruction of the Amazon and its inhabitants over the past centuries.
        Retric 9y ago
        It's common to order blood tests when people show symptoms of depression. Hypothyroidism is the most common medical condition associated with depressive symptoms, but there are others. Depression is considered when people have a null result on those tests, therefore there are physical tests for depression. Just not in the way testing is normally thought of.
    - mcguire 9y ago

thret 9y ago

I'm reading 'The Fatal Shore' by Robert Hughes at the moment, it's description of the customs of one primitive tribe might lead you to question how happy the women are in those Amazon tribes.

grecy 9y ago

> I have not doubt those tribes are happier than 90% of the people belonging to advanced civilizations. I have just spent a year in 16 countries in West Africa. On the whole, people here are extremely happy / content / friendly. In all honesty, they make Canadians look unfriendly and unhappy. I know you strongly believe everything we have invented in the modern world makes us happier (almost everyone does) You really, really, REALLY need to see with you own eyes, not just listen to what you have been told.

artursapek 9y ago
> I know you strongly believe everything we have invented in the modern world makes us happier It also raises our threshold for happiness in the long term, and we spend more and more of our time working to sustain that. It's kind of like a never ending drug addiction. I'm not surprised to hear people living simpler lives appear happier.
lloydde 9y ago
@grecy you seem to have reversed the meaning of the parent post. You are strongly agreeing with the parent.
Brockenstein 9y ago
Happiness wasn't invented in the last decade of the 20th century... or at any arbitrary point in the development of civilization. Pretty much any time things aren't just horrible and desperate, people are more than capable of being happy. People are very adaptable in that regard. The other thing we tend to do as human beings is tell ourselves that people who are better off can't be (that much) happier. Or people who are better off convincing themselves that because their lives aren't perfect that all circumstances are essentially the same as far as happiness goes and that people with less or who are living closer to the edge are actually happier than they are. There's a wide range of circumstances people can live with and still find happiness. Very few of us have a hard requirement of being on the very top rung of the ladder to be happy. And there's no particular rung on the ladder where happiness becomes possible.
bb101 9y ago
Which countries or regions did you find the most happy and friendly? I'd love to hear about your experiences.

indubitable 9y ago

Imagine a refined form of lobotomization were possible such that the individual who underwent the treatment would be reduced to an infantile level of IQ. They would retain sufficient intelligence to maintain basic hygiene and preservation, but little beyond that. However, it also resulted in the subject of said procedure receiving enormous pleasure engaging in simple repetitive tasks - such as, for instance, flipping burgers. I would, in no way whatsoever, be interested in such a procedure and I think it's safe to say that applies to the vast majority. Thus, it must be presumed that the happiness of an individual or a group is not really a measurement of their 'fulfillment' even if it sounds like a reasonable premise in a vacuum.