8 ms·

I find it extremely hard to find qualified people. The problem is that a big part of the population is not qualified enough to work and will not be in the futur

by Loic 9y ago

I find it extremely hard to find qualified people. The problem is that a big part of the population is not qualified enough to work and will not be in the future. The 3.7% unemployment rate in Germany is considering something doing a part-time job for less than €400 per month as employed and the long term unemployed people are not part of the stats, the youths are also not in, etc. They are very good at removing many from the stats. If you look at the industrial core of Germany, the Rhein/Ruhr region, you see cities after cities cut in two, one side with 35% of population living from social support and the other side with just 5%. When you "start" your life in the wrong side, you are out of the employment stats right from the start. Note: I am French, living in Gelsenkirchen (such a typical city) and here, we have really hard time finding good engineers even with very good compensation and at the same time we have parts of the city where Doctors without Borders opened a station because the situation is catastrophic.

chefkoch 9y ago
>at the same time we have parts of the city where Doctors without Borders opened a station because the situation is catastrophic. Are you sure about this? Here germany is not listed as country where they are currently have projects. https://www.aerzte-ohne-grenzen.de/unsere-arbeit/einsatzlaender https://www.aerzte-ohne-grenzen.de/unsere-arbeit/einsatzlaen...
- Loic 9y ago
  They opened one in June, but maybe just the fact that they opened it moved the local authorities to act. I will check.
literallycancer 9y ago
>we have really hard time finding good engineers even with very good compensation Everyone thinks they are offering good compensation, regardless of whether it actually is. Somehow, I doubt you'd have the issue if you offered 100k.
- Loic 9y ago
  For the particular case I had in mind it was around 170k€, but in the Rhein/Ruhr Region, you can easily get 100k compensation for good chemical engineers with experience with very good work conditions.
  - literallycancer 9y ago
    Interesting that there's such a difference between fields, thanks for the data point. Numbers like 170k aren't seen too often in software engineering in Germany as far as I'm aware.
    - Loic 9y ago
      Also in chemical engineering. This is usually for people having around 20 to 50 engineers reporting to them within a big company like Bayer, BASF, Covestro, Linde, etc. or for project managers coordinating large projects (10's to 100's of millions).
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  This argument is simply flawed. If you offer 100k (or 1M or whatever) you just move one engineer from another company to yours. So the other company now has a hard time finding a good engineer. If you increase your salary scale you will get an engineer who is moved away soon by another company which pays more money. In an optimal market, with p% missing engineers you will have p% of your positions open. You can't plug holes with this strategy. The holes move around while salaries are increasing. I've worked for a company that payed at the top 10% of salaries and we still couldn't find enough engineers.
  - parasight 9y ago
    Offering 100k (or more) would also attract more people from abroad. We (I'm German too) have to compete with other regions in the world where the pay is much higher. Higher does not mean better of course (cost of living), but people seem to prefer higher numbers on the paycheck.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
"opened a station because the situation is catastrophic." As a German I'm astonished, there are no hospitals? This list gives 6 hospitals: https://www.kliniken.de/krankenhaus/deutschland/ort/gelsenkirchen https://www.kliniken.de/krankenhaus/deutschland/ort/gelsenki... Hospitals full? Too many people without home who have no health insurance? (Main reason here in Berlin for doctors working in their spare time outside hospitals) Most people - with the exception of failed entrepreneurs - should have health insurance - you must have one if you have a job and there is one if you're on social security payments. Any links? Doctors without Borders and Gelsenkirchen does not turn up anything in Google.
germanier 9y ago
> at the same time we have parts of the city where Doctors without Borders opened a station because the situation is catastrophic I can't find any reference to this station online (neither operated nor planned) and have never heard of anything remotely close (I work in the field). On the contrary, currently capacity is being reduced in the region due to permanently vacant hospital beds. There are some stations for people without health insurance (usually undocumented people that fear detection). The nearest one should be in Duisburg operated by Malteser. Note that those are not because of low capacity but due to documentation requirements at regular hospitals. > They are very good at removing many from the stats. This is done by each and every single country, Germany is nothing special here. Very detailed numbers of all those groups usually "excluded" from the main headline statistic are published along with it. There is nothing being hidden. There are also ILO unemployment statistics calculated with the same methodology worldwide, they too look very good (and improving).

by Loic 9y ago

chefkoch 9y ago

>at the same time we have parts of the city where Doctors without Borders opened a station because the situation is catastrophic. Are you sure about this? Here germany is not listed as country where they are currently have projects. https://www.aerzte-ohne-grenzen.de/unsere-arbeit/einsatzlaender https://www.aerzte-ohne-grenzen.de/unsere-arbeit/einsatzlaen...

Loic 9y ago
They opened one in June, but maybe just the fact that they opened it moved the local authorities to act. I will check.

literallycancer 9y ago

>we have really hard time finding good engineers even with very good compensation Everyone thinks they are offering good compensation, regardless of whether it actually is. Somehow, I doubt you'd have the issue if you offered 100k.

Loic 9y ago
For the particular case I had in mind it was around 170k€, but in the Rhein/Ruhr Region, you can easily get 100k compensation for good chemical engineers with experience with very good work conditions.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Interesting that there's such a difference between fields, thanks for the data point. Numbers like 170k aren't seen too often in software engineering in Germany as far as I'm aware.
  - Loic 9y ago
    Also in chemical engineering. This is usually for people having around 20 to 50 engineers reporting to them within a big company like Bayer, BASF, Covestro, Linde, etc. or for project managers coordinating large projects (10's to 100's of millions).
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
This argument is simply flawed. If you offer 100k (or 1M or whatever) you just move one engineer from another company to yours. So the other company now has a hard time finding a good engineer. If you increase your salary scale you will get an engineer who is moved away soon by another company which pays more money. In an optimal market, with p% missing engineers you will have p% of your positions open. You can't plug holes with this strategy. The holes move around while salaries are increasing. I've worked for a company that payed at the top 10% of salaries and we still couldn't find enough engineers.
- parasight 9y ago
  Offering 100k (or more) would also attract more people from abroad. We (I'm German too) have to compete with other regions in the world where the pay is much higher. Higher does not mean better of course (cost of living), but people seem to prefer higher numbers on the paycheck.

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

"opened a station because the situation is catastrophic." As a German I'm astonished, there are no hospitals? This list gives 6 hospitals: https://www.kliniken.de/krankenhaus/deutschland/ort/gelsenkirchen https://www.kliniken.de/krankenhaus/deutschland/ort/gelsenki... Hospitals full? Too many people without home who have no health insurance? (Main reason here in Berlin for doctors working in their spare time outside hospitals) Most people - with the exception of failed entrepreneurs - should have health insurance - you must have one if you have a job and there is one if you're on social security payments. Any links? Doctors without Borders and Gelsenkirchen does not turn up anything in Google.

germanier 9y ago

> at the same time we have parts of the city where Doctors without Borders opened a station because the situation is catastrophic I can't find any reference to this station online (neither operated nor planned) and have never heard of anything remotely close (I work in the field). On the contrary, currently capacity is being reduced in the region due to permanently vacant hospital beds. There are some stations for people without health insurance (usually undocumented people that fear detection). The nearest one should be in Duisburg operated by Malteser. Note that those are not because of low capacity but due to documentation requirements at regular hospitals. > They are very good at removing many from the stats. This is done by each and every single country, Germany is nothing special here. Very detailed numbers of all those groups usually "excluded" from the main headline statistic are published along with it. There is nothing being hidden. There are also ILO unemployment statistics calculated with the same methodology worldwide, they too look very good (and improving).