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You've got this wrong. kaens did not claim that men and women are "fundamentally the same". He's saying, don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differen

You've got this wrong. kaens did not claim that men and women are "fundamentally the same". He's saying, don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences. All you've pointed out is that there are indeed fundamental differences of some kinds, but not of the sort kaens was talking about. The inconclusiveness you raise supports his point. Edit: Wow. Downvoted. What on earth for?

adw 16y ago
Amen. There are, obviously, some population differences between men and women; for instance, on average men are taller. Blame the hormones. But people confuse mean and variance, and this is one case where instinctive ignorance of probability is tantamount to sexism. In fact, it's plain rude to do that to people. Okay, an example. Let's say that on average, men are better fighters than women - whether that's societal or innate is neither here nor there, but take it as generally true. It doesn't change the fact that my sister could kick my arse. If I trusted in statistics there, I'd have been wearing my teeth as a necklace by the age of ten. So even if the means are different, the variances are so high that you can't know what the person in front of you, male or female, is good at. What that means is that if you go into something like this with preconceptions based on gender, then you are being unfair to the person in front of you - male or female - by not judging them on who they are and what they can do. And if you fail to allow for the gender roles that society forces people into, then you're closing yourself off to talent. And if you close yourself off to talent you can use, your company deserves to fail. I don't want to be that guy or that company. (This is pretty personal for me, actually; my mother taught me BASIC when I was seven or so. She's a much better programmer than I am.)
- Super_Jambo 16y ago
  Which is an excellent argument not to discriminate against an individual. However, what the OP and this thread are discussing is ways of 'fixing' a low percentage of women in startups. Which could be caused by either women on average having a worse skill set for startups or on average having less of a desire to take risky economic decisions. If these are the causes then there isn't likely to be any way to 'fix' it.
  - kaens 16y ago
    I'm fairly certain that the percentage of women in startups is much lower than can be explained by purely biological means.
    - aidenn0 16y ago
      I bet it can be completely explained by a combination of biological and environmental causes. Just because the claim is made that there are biological differences between men and women does not mean that the disparity of women vs. men in startups is entirely (or even mostly) due to biological causes. If you want more women in startups then you have to either change women or change startups.
      - kaens 16y ago
        I'm really starting to get the impression that people think that I've been arguing that there aren't any biological differences between males and females. I probably should have worded that sentence as "fundamentally different in regards to what they are capable of doing, minus some very obvious physical limitations like childbirth and ejaculation of semen"
kaens 16y ago
Yes, that's a much more succinct way of putting it.
Alex3917 16y ago
"Don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences." I think you should assume fundamental differences, because that's what both the research and experience show. Certainly more can be done for younger women, but if you don't think that businesswomen in their 40s are on average more capable than their younger counterparts then you probably haven't spent much time around businesswomen. (For reference, I took a class on women and entrepreneurship so I've been exposed to a lot of 20ish female entrepreneurs and a lot of 40ish businesswomen.)
- kaens 16y ago
  Does the research and experience show that businessmen in their 40s are on average more capable than their younger counterparts? I bet it does!
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    You can make fun of me if you want, but the fact is that there are many, many differences between men and women. We don't really know what those differences mean in the real world, but we shouldn't pretend they don't exist any more than we should assume that they're 'crippling'. As for which ones would prevent a woman from being successful as an entrepreneur in her 20s, it's impossible to say because success as an entrepreneur is multiplicative. There are dozens of factors, and only one has to be zero or near zero to make the whole thing fall apart. But the very fact that women are so different from men makes this theory quite plausible, albeit completely speculative.
    - kaens 16y ago
      I'm not making fun of you. I'm saying that women being more successful entrepreneurs in their 40s may not be tied to them being women, but to them being twice as old and experienced as a 20 year old

adw 16y ago

Amen. There are, obviously, some population differences between men and women; for instance, on average men are taller. Blame the hormones. But people confuse mean and variance, and this is one case where instinctive ignorance of probability is tantamount to sexism. In fact, it's plain rude to do that to people. Okay, an example. Let's say that on average, men are better fighters than women - whether that's societal or innate is neither here nor there, but take it as generally true. It doesn't change the fact that my sister could kick my arse. If I trusted in statistics there, I'd have been wearing my teeth as a necklace by the age of ten. So even if the means are different, the variances are so high that you can't know what the person in front of you, male or female, is good at. What that means is that if you go into something like this with preconceptions based on gender, then you are being unfair to the person in front of you - male or female - by not judging them on who they are and what they can do. And if you fail to allow for the gender roles that society forces people into, then you're closing yourself off to talent. And if you close yourself off to talent you can use, your company deserves to fail. I don't want to be that guy or that company. (This is pretty personal for me, actually; my mother taught me BASIC when I was seven or so. She's a much better programmer than I am.)

Super_Jambo 16y ago
Which is an excellent argument not to discriminate against an individual. However, what the OP and this thread are discussing is ways of 'fixing' a low percentage of women in startups. Which could be caused by either women on average having a worse skill set for startups or on average having less of a desire to take risky economic decisions. If these are the causes then there isn't likely to be any way to 'fix' it.
- kaens 16y ago
  I'm fairly certain that the percentage of women in startups is much lower than can be explained by purely biological means.
  - aidenn0 16y ago
    I bet it can be completely explained by a combination of biological and environmental causes. Just because the claim is made that there are biological differences between men and women does not mean that the disparity of women vs. men in startups is entirely (or even mostly) due to biological causes. If you want more women in startups then you have to either change women or change startups.
    - kaens 16y ago
      I'm really starting to get the impression that people think that I've been arguing that there aren't any biological differences between males and females. I probably should have worded that sentence as "fundamentally different in regards to what they are capable of doing, minus some very obvious physical limitations like childbirth and ejaculation of semen"

kaens 16y ago

Yes, that's a much more succinct way of putting it.

Alex3917 16y ago

"Don't assume there are fundamental (crippling) differences." I think you should assume fundamental differences, because that's what both the research and experience show. Certainly more can be done for younger women, but if you don't think that businesswomen in their 40s are on average more capable than their younger counterparts then you probably haven't spent much time around businesswomen. (For reference, I took a class on women and entrepreneurship so I've been exposed to a lot of 20ish female entrepreneurs and a lot of 40ish businesswomen.)

kaens 16y ago
Does the research and experience show that businessmen in their 40s are on average more capable than their younger counterparts? I bet it does!
- Alex3917 16y ago
  You can make fun of me if you want, but the fact is that there are many, many differences between men and women. We don't really know what those differences mean in the real world, but we shouldn't pretend they don't exist any more than we should assume that they're 'crippling'. As for which ones would prevent a woman from being successful as an entrepreneur in her 20s, it's impossible to say because success as an entrepreneur is multiplicative. There are dozens of factors, and only one has to be zero or near zero to make the whole thing fall apart. But the very fact that women are so different from men makes this theory quite plausible, albeit completely speculative.
  - kaens 16y ago
    I'm not making fun of you. I'm saying that women being more successful entrepreneurs in their 40s may not be tied to them being women, but to them being twice as old and experienced as a 20 year old