4 ms·

I see your 3 year young iPhone and raise my 6 year old Motorola Defy. I bought it new in 2011 for about 1/4 of what the then-current iPhone would have cost. It

I see your 3 year young iPhone and raise my 6 year old Motorola Defy. I bought it new in 2011 for about 1/4 of what the then-current iPhone would have cost. It still works flawlessly, the battery is fine as well (~5 days of normal use on a single charge or ~7 hours of screen time). If the battery were to fail I could just replace it, no tools required. Oh, the thing is waterproof and 'shock-proof' (although the latter is to be taken with a grain of salt, my wife managed to break the glass on hers after about three years). In other words, it does not take an expensive iPhone to last longer than a contract period. Well-built phones can last a long time, much longer than the 2 years which most people seem to consider as normal.

thingerr 9y ago
I'd be with you, except for Android's planned obsolescence. The reliance on third-parties to provide at most ~2/3 year security update paired with a dated and forked version of the Linux kernel gives me pause.
- Yetanfou 9y ago
  That is what AOSP and its derivatives are for, to pick up development when the manufacturer gives up. The Defy did not get updated past 2.3.6 by Motorola, anything after that (currently running 4.4.4 which is as far as this device will go) comes from there. Since Android apps are generally backward compatible for a long time, older Android devices can still run current apps. This is actually one of the advantages Android has over iOS, older iDevices are generally stuck at older apps as soon as Apple stops supporting the device.
  - thingerr 9y ago
    First, you aren't talking about the average consumer anymore. If we're talking flashing operating systems, sideloading kernel updates and boot loaders in order to feel secure about your mobile device, then an older, vertically supported iOS device is probably a better bet. Secondly, AOSP isn't forever. After your carrier/device-manufacturer drops support, Google isn't that far behind. If you're not getting AOSP drops for your device that work with device drivers then it's probably dead. There are a few brave souls willing to port modern Android to no-longer-google supported devices, but I wouldn't call that sure-fire security. Thirdly, many AOSP derivatives and communities have niche motives that don't really align with the average user. New OS features, experimental "battery saving" kernel hacks and user-space root are commonplace where they really shouldn't be for the average, or arguably any, mobile user. Often devs get a new device and the community quietly moves on, dies, stops providing. Mobile software is really in a sore place right now overall and neither duopoly is 100%. The incentives aren't aligned to the consumer.
    - thrownblown 9y ago
      Lineage OS is pretty easy on my nexus 6. Unlocking the bootloader was the hardest part, which is literally "fastboot OEM unlock" So yeah its hard. YMMV.
      - bb101 9y ago
        I agree, it's not hard. However, I know some people who just can't grasp how to set up a mail account or even use Dropbox. For them, unlocking a bootloader is nigh on impossible.
  - mosselman 9y ago
    I have gone down this path and then realised that a. I hate having to flash my phone every so often to keep it updated and b. the time I would have to spend flashing phones is more expensive than the price different between an android phone and an iPhone.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  That's all set to change in Android Oreo. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
  - legomater 9y ago
    Oreo will make it easier for maintainers to keep maintaining, but definitely won't guarantee they do so. Just because device drivers are now easier to keep up to date doesn't remove the huge monetary incentive to push users onto the next phone.
dannysu 9y ago
That misses a key point I was making: OS updates. Yes, I too have a Nexus 4 (bought in 2012) and it still works fine. But no more updates. I don't consider that on par with say my previous work laptop, which was also 3 years before I upgraded. I also own a Moto E (2nd Gen, $60-ish) and bought a Moto G+ for my brother this year, but I can't count on them to receive OS updates for as long.
- StreamBright 9y ago
  Well I would like to see version 1.0 sofware that receives only security updates than the current status quo that we update a huge amount of your apps every week to change a button a bit. Every update there is a risk that something is going to be broken, even at the OS level. This is pathetic that we are going this direction.
  - smcl 9y ago
    As it stands I think that Nexus 5 is getting neither - no functionality or security updates
    - xbmcuser 9y ago
      This is partly because of hardware manfacturers not supporting the latest version of Android. I think Google latest attempt to separate hardware drivers from Android itself should help a lot though the advantage will really be seen 2 years from now. If what Google is attempting works just like iOS and iPhone you will get the latest version of the OS barring a few hardware based features that your phone hardware doesn't support.
- marvelous 9y ago
  The Motos are well supported by aftermarket ROMs if you want updates. They might be among the cheapest with this.
- Kurtz79 9y ago
  Except you are comparing a 749$ phone with a 220$ and 60$ ones. You could buy a new Moto G every 2 years and you would still have an up-to-date phone that is more economical than an iPhone, if OS-updates are your main worry (on average, I believe Apple supports devices up to 5 years, which objectively is a lot). That without considering how well old phones work with newer OSs, my iPhone 4 did technically work with the last supported update, but the performance hit was so big it made it a pain to use.
brianSP 9y ago
I see your 6 year young iPhone and raise my 14 year old Nokia 1100. I bought it new in 2003 80~ dolla. It still works flawlessly, the battery is fine as well (~31 days of normal use on a single charge or ~16 hours of screen time). If the battery were to fail I could just replace it, no tools required. Oh, the thing is bulletproof (although it must be taken with a grain of salt, chuck norrys managed to break the glass on his after about three years). In other words, it does not take an expensive iPhone to last longer than a contract period. Well-built phones can last a long time, much longer than the 10 years which most people seem to consider as normal.
- rtpg 9y ago
  I get that this might be a great "call other people with voice" phone, but most people use their phones as web browsers or, in the simplest case, as a chat application runner. This comparison doesn't add much to the spectrum of discussion here Perhaps if the 1100 had WhatsApp we can talk about this comparison, but otherwise this is like comparing your phone battery life to a flashlight's. Sure, a flashlight will last longer for the light, but I still like use the light on my phone because it's a thing I use for other things as well.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Well, guess what, my elderly Nokia actually has a browser, no whatsapp but then again I wouldn't use that even if my phone supported it.
    - Razengan 9y ago
      How well can you access HN on it?
      - kbart 9y ago
        My Nokia from 2009 can handle it just fine. I still use it whenever i break yet another smartphone (written from Nokia 6303i).
      - 9y ago
arnvald 9y ago
Does it still get updates though? In 2011 I bought a Motorola Droid 2 and I it's been one of the best phones I've used, but I don't think I've ever got any system update. It's been stuck on 2.1 forever.
- Yaggo 9y ago
  The original iPhone which I bought 10 years ago is still in daily use (by a person who only needs voice & sms).
simonh 9y ago
My daughter was still using my 2010 iPhone 3GS until last December. It even still worked with the App Store. I'd dig it out and fire it up again but I'm not sure where it is. All my iPhones get handed down. The only one out of (er, 5 devices I think?) that's properly busted is my other daughter's 4s. It started falling apart at the seams this summer and is currently held together with sliced strips of sticky tape. Still, it's lasted 5 years and was still getting OS updates last year!
simonh 9y ago
My daughter was still using my 2010 iPhone 3GS until last December. It even still worked with the App Store. I'd dig it out and fire it up again but I'm not sure where it is. All my iPhones get handed down. The only one out of (er, 5 devices I think?) that's properly busted is my other daughter's 4s. It started falling apart at the seams this summer and is currently held together with sliced strips of sticky tape. Still, it's lasted 5 years and was still getting OS updates last year! The ting with OS updates is, it was supposed to be the other way around. We were told that being open source meant Android phones could never be abandoned like this. Owners would have the freedom to update the OS themselves and would truly own their device and it's software. There's no way a proprietary OS vendor would provide long terms support because it would be uneconomical and deter upgrades to new devices. What an utter crock of shit! What went wrong?
simonh 9y ago
My daughter was still using my 2010 iPhone 3GS until last December. It even still worked with the App Store. I'd dig it out and fire it up again but I'm not sure where it is. I ran out of family members to had it down to. All my iPhones get handed down. The only one out of (er, 5 devices I think?) that's properly busted is my other daughter's 4s. It started falling apart at the seams this summer and is currently held together with sliced strips of sticky tape. Still, it's lasted 5 years and was still getting OS updates last year! The thing with OS updates is, it was supposed to be the other way around. We were told that being open source meant Android phones could never be abandoned like this. Owners would have the freedom to update the OS themselves and would truly own their device and it's software. There's no way a proprietary OS vendor would provide long terms support because it would be uneconomical and deter upgrades to new devices, but with Android that wouldn't matter. What an utter crock of shit that turned out to be! What went wrong? How can Android fans that bought that line not be storming the gates of the vendors and Google that sold them these lies for being deceived and betrayed? But no, it's all about the new Samsung (factory worker poisoning, embezzling CEO, explodaphone coverup) shiny. Just roll over and be grateful for your new dose of utopian Android open source goodness, the best possible phones in the best of all possible open source worlds. Un-effing-believable.
Tepix 9y ago
If you install a more recent version of Android (such as 4.4) on the Defy (it shipped with Android 2.3 or so), it will be too slow for use (for my taste,anyway). I tried it with a faster Defy+. Even with Android 4.4 it will be a very insecure phone. With Android 2.3 it will be laughably insecure. Visit one wrong webpage and your phone is owned. No thanks.
- Yetanfou 9y ago
  In what way would this be "a very insecure phone"? It runs Android 4.4.4 just fine. I patched the one glaring bug ('Stagefright'), it runs the latest browsers (Firefox/Fennec, Lightning, PB) without problems. While there is lots of talk about 'Android being insecure' it is hard to find actual examples of Android devices which are used in a sensible way (i.e. which do not get fed whatever APK just downloaded from getfreestuff.cooldoodz.biz) being exploited.
  - Tepix 9y ago
    Well, if you haven't fixed CVE-2015-3864, CVE-2015-3876 and CVE-2015-6602 chances are you are still vulnerable by visiting a wrong web page. Just look at the monthly security fix notes. There are critical vulnerabilities getting fixed every month. Here are more critical ones: CVE-2017-0764, CVE-2017-0756 from the September patchlevel that also affects Android 4.4.4. See https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-09-01 https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-09-01 In August 2017, three more. In July one. In May another two. Still not convinced?

thingerr 9y ago

I'd be with you, except for Android's planned obsolescence. The reliance on third-parties to provide at most ~2/3 year security update paired with a dated and forked version of the Linux kernel gives me pause.

Yetanfou 9y ago
That is what AOSP and its derivatives are for, to pick up development when the manufacturer gives up. The Defy did not get updated past 2.3.6 by Motorola, anything after that (currently running 4.4.4 which is as far as this device will go) comes from there. Since Android apps are generally backward compatible for a long time, older Android devices can still run current apps. This is actually one of the advantages Android has over iOS, older iDevices are generally stuck at older apps as soon as Apple stops supporting the device.
- thingerr 9y ago
  First, you aren't talking about the average consumer anymore. If we're talking flashing operating systems, sideloading kernel updates and boot loaders in order to feel secure about your mobile device, then an older, vertically supported iOS device is probably a better bet. Secondly, AOSP isn't forever. After your carrier/device-manufacturer drops support, Google isn't that far behind. If you're not getting AOSP drops for your device that work with device drivers then it's probably dead. There are a few brave souls willing to port modern Android to no-longer-google supported devices, but I wouldn't call that sure-fire security. Thirdly, many AOSP derivatives and communities have niche motives that don't really align with the average user. New OS features, experimental "battery saving" kernel hacks and user-space root are commonplace where they really shouldn't be for the average, or arguably any, mobile user. Often devs get a new device and the community quietly moves on, dies, stops providing. Mobile software is really in a sore place right now overall and neither duopoly is 100%. The incentives aren't aligned to the consumer.
  - thrownblown 9y ago
    Lineage OS is pretty easy on my nexus 6. Unlocking the bootloader was the hardest part, which is literally "fastboot OEM unlock" So yeah its hard. YMMV.
    - bb101 9y ago
      I agree, it's not hard. However, I know some people who just can't grasp how to set up a mail account or even use Dropbox. For them, unlocking a bootloader is nigh on impossible.
- mosselman 9y ago
  I have gone down this path and then realised that a. I hate having to flash my phone every so often to keep it updated and b. the time I would have to spend flashing phones is more expensive than the price different between an android phone and an iPhone.
jdietrich 9y ago
That's all set to change in Android Oreo. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes...
- legomater 9y ago
  Oreo will make it easier for maintainers to keep maintaining, but definitely won't guarantee they do so. Just because device drivers are now easier to keep up to date doesn't remove the huge monetary incentive to push users onto the next phone.

dannysu 9y ago

That misses a key point I was making: OS updates. Yes, I too have a Nexus 4 (bought in 2012) and it still works fine. But no more updates. I don't consider that on par with say my previous work laptop, which was also 3 years before I upgraded. I also own a Moto E (2nd Gen, $60-ish) and bought a Moto G+ for my brother this year, but I can't count on them to receive OS updates for as long.

StreamBright 9y ago
Well I would like to see version 1.0 sofware that receives only security updates than the current status quo that we update a huge amount of your apps every week to change a button a bit. Every update there is a risk that something is going to be broken, even at the OS level. This is pathetic that we are going this direction.
- smcl 9y ago
  As it stands I think that Nexus 5 is getting neither - no functionality or security updates
  - xbmcuser 9y ago
    This is partly because of hardware manfacturers not supporting the latest version of Android. I think Google latest attempt to separate hardware drivers from Android itself should help a lot though the advantage will really be seen 2 years from now. If what Google is attempting works just like iOS and iPhone you will get the latest version of the OS barring a few hardware based features that your phone hardware doesn't support.
marvelous 9y ago
The Motos are well supported by aftermarket ROMs if you want updates. They might be among the cheapest with this.
Kurtz79 9y ago
Except you are comparing a 749$ phone with a 220$ and 60$ ones. You could buy a new Moto G every 2 years and you would still have an up-to-date phone that is more economical than an iPhone, if OS-updates are your main worry (on average, I believe Apple supports devices up to 5 years, which objectively is a lot). That without considering how well old phones work with newer OSs, my iPhone 4 did technically work with the last supported update, but the performance hit was so big it made it a pain to use.

brianSP 9y ago

I see your 6 year young iPhone and raise my 14 year old Nokia 1100. I bought it new in 2003 80~ dolla. It still works flawlessly, the battery is fine as well (~31 days of normal use on a single charge or ~16 hours of screen time). If the battery were to fail I could just replace it, no tools required. Oh, the thing is bulletproof (although it must be taken with a grain of salt, chuck norrys managed to break the glass on his after about three years). In other words, it does not take an expensive iPhone to last longer than a contract period. Well-built phones can last a long time, much longer than the 10 years which most people seem to consider as normal.

rtpg 9y ago
I get that this might be a great "call other people with voice" phone, but most people use their phones as web browsers or, in the simplest case, as a chat application runner. This comparison doesn't add much to the spectrum of discussion here Perhaps if the 1100 had WhatsApp we can talk about this comparison, but otherwise this is like comparing your phone battery life to a flashlight's. Sure, a flashlight will last longer for the light, but I still like use the light on my phone because it's a thing I use for other things as well.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Well, guess what, my elderly Nokia actually has a browser, no whatsapp but then again I wouldn't use that even if my phone supported it.
  - Razengan 9y ago
    How well can you access HN on it?
    - kbart 9y ago
      My Nokia from 2009 can handle it just fine. I still use it whenever i break yet another smartphone (written from Nokia 6303i).
    - 9y ago

arnvald 9y ago

Does it still get updates though? In 2011 I bought a Motorola Droid 2 and I it's been one of the best phones I've used, but I don't think I've ever got any system update. It's been stuck on 2.1 forever.

Yaggo 9y ago
The original iPhone which I bought 10 years ago is still in daily use (by a person who only needs voice & sms).

simonh 9y ago

My daughter was still using my 2010 iPhone 3GS until last December. It even still worked with the App Store. I'd dig it out and fire it up again but I'm not sure where it is. All my iPhones get handed down. The only one out of (er, 5 devices I think?) that's properly busted is my other daughter's 4s. It started falling apart at the seams this summer and is currently held together with sliced strips of sticky tape. Still, it's lasted 5 years and was still getting OS updates last year! The ting with OS updates is, it was supposed to be the other way around. We were told that being open source meant Android phones could never be abandoned like this. Owners would have the freedom to update the OS themselves and would truly own their device and it's software. There's no way a proprietary OS vendor would provide long terms support because it would be uneconomical and deter upgrades to new devices. What an utter crock of shit! What went wrong?

simonh 9y ago

My daughter was still using my 2010 iPhone 3GS until last December. It even still worked with the App Store. I'd dig it out and fire it up again but I'm not sure where it is. I ran out of family members to had it down to. All my iPhones get handed down. The only one out of (er, 5 devices I think?) that's properly busted is my other daughter's 4s. It started falling apart at the seams this summer and is currently held together with sliced strips of sticky tape. Still, it's lasted 5 years and was still getting OS updates last year! The thing with OS updates is, it was supposed to be the other way around. We were told that being open source meant Android phones could never be abandoned like this. Owners would have the freedom to update the OS themselves and would truly own their device and it's software. There's no way a proprietary OS vendor would provide long terms support because it would be uneconomical and deter upgrades to new devices, but with Android that wouldn't matter. What an utter crock of shit that turned out to be! What went wrong? How can Android fans that bought that line not be storming the gates of the vendors and Google that sold them these lies for being deceived and betrayed? But no, it's all about the new Samsung (factory worker poisoning, embezzling CEO, explodaphone coverup) shiny. Just roll over and be grateful for your new dose of utopian Android open source goodness, the best possible phones in the best of all possible open source worlds. Un-effing-believable.

Tepix 9y ago

If you install a more recent version of Android (such as 4.4) on the Defy (it shipped with Android 2.3 or so), it will be too slow for use (for my taste,anyway). I tried it with a faster Defy+. Even with Android 4.4 it will be a very insecure phone. With Android 2.3 it will be laughably insecure. Visit one wrong webpage and your phone is owned. No thanks.

Yetanfou 9y ago
In what way would this be "a very insecure phone"? It runs Android 4.4.4 just fine. I patched the one glaring bug ('Stagefright'), it runs the latest browsers (Firefox/Fennec, Lightning, PB) without problems. While there is lots of talk about 'Android being insecure' it is hard to find actual examples of Android devices which are used in a sensible way (i.e. which do not get fed whatever APK just downloaded from getfreestuff.cooldoodz.biz) being exploited.
- Tepix 9y ago
  Well, if you haven't fixed CVE-2015-3864, CVE-2015-3876 and CVE-2015-6602 chances are you are still vulnerable by visiting a wrong web page. Just look at the monthly security fix notes. There are critical vulnerabilities getting fixed every month. Here are more critical ones: CVE-2017-0764, CVE-2017-0756 from the September patchlevel that also affects Android 4.4.4. See https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-09-01 https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2017-09-01 In August 2017, three more. In July one. In May another two. Still not convinced?