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> As part of the patent grant, you’d have to stop using Facebook open source upon claiming patent infringement. IANAL but I don't believe this is correct. If

> As part of the patent grant, you’d have to stop using Facebook open source upon claiming patent infringement. IANAL but I don't believe this is correct. If I'm using React and I decide to sue Facebook for infringing some other software patents I hold, I lose the patent grant for any potential patents Facebook might hold concerning React. Which they could go after me with if they do indeed hold such patents. There's nothing proactively forcing me off React. I just don't see anything but good from this BSD+patent grant situation. It lessens software patent litigation in general and lets me know I'm safe from Facebook suing me specially. It seems fantastic!

abritinthebay 9y ago
Indeed. I seems to me that all of this noice is due to programmers thinking they understand basic law. They don’t. Most developers don’t understand basic copyright, let alone licenses and grants.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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chaostheory 9y ago
What happens when those patents are no longer potential and have been granted to Facebook?
- Lazare 9y ago
  A patent application must be filed within 1 year of public disclosure or its barred, and React has been out for years. And any pending application filed during that 1 year window would be visible now, so... ...nothing is going to happen. There's no submarine patents possible here. (...from Facebook, anyhow.)
  - chaostheory 9y ago
    This license isn't exclusive to React. Assuming that you're correct and Facebook's legal team made a mistake, what happens when everything is filed correctly with another project? What happens when another company uses this? I can't help but feel that the big picture is being missed. If Facebook's open source projects don't lose momentum, other companies will be tempted to do follow
  - e9 9y ago
    FYI this patent was published recently: "Automatic overdraw reduction before rendering" https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242?dq=facebook+user+interface+react+virtual+dom&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWo8DVvZzWAhWojlQKHXRDAkgQ6AEIPzAD https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242?dq=facebook+use...
    - Lazare 9y ago
      Fascinating. Well, good to know, and that does change thing a bit. So, better make sure nothing you use has any form of smart overdraw reduction, dom diffing, etc., before you pick a patent fight with Facebook. Of course, a cursory glance suggests every modern frontend UI library will violate that patent, so I still don't see a reason to avoid React; Vue, Angular, and recent versions of Ember are all just as much in violation. Guess we're back to static HTML and PHP. :) (More seriously, hopefully it won't go anywhere; it's pretty clearly got a ton of prior art. But given how broken the patent system is, who knows?)
      - mickronome 9y ago
        Yeah, the claims appears to be the usual ”-We do the desktop thing, but it's actually completely a different thing because we implement it in a browser, and it's natural confines". However, imho one of the major problems with software related patents is allowing an extremely ambiguous language in a field where exact language is the native form of expression. It simultaneously makes it excessively expensive to challenge a patent, and almost impossible to divine if a particular implementation is covered. There is code I've written that a client wanted to patent, and knowing the nature of the code, it's not a snowball's chance in hell I would recognise that (my own) algorithm if it was written in patentese, at least without spending days on it. I don't even want to think about how many hours of legal fees it would cost to challenge even such a minor algorithm.
gnicholas 9y ago
> If I'm using React and I decide to sue Facebook for infringing some other software patents I hold, I lose the patent grant for any potential patents Facebook might hold concerning React. Which they could go after me with if they do indeed hold such patents. There's nothing proactively forcing me off React. It seems like you're assuming that there's a decent chance that FB doesn't actually hold any patents on React. This seems unlikely, and is contradicted by what the author wrote (indicating that popular React alternatives may also infringe FB patents). Or am I not understanding your line of thinking? My view, as a former lawyer, is that if you want to sue FB for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using React. Willful infringement = treble damages.
- notacoward 9y ago
  > if you want to sue FB for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using React. If you want to sue any company for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using their software under most common licenses. The most-touted alternatives to React are plain MIT license with no patent grant at all, creating exactly the same risk. Why does the license that prevents you from being sued first get all the condemnation?
  - solomatov 9y ago
    > The most-touted alternatives to React are plain MIT license with no patent grant at all IANAL, but as far as I understand, MIT license contains implicit patent grant.
    - singron 9y ago
      If these projects are covered by Facebook patents, it doesn't matter if their license has a patent grant since they don't own rights to the Facebook patents.
      - kjsthree 9y ago
        Exactly! I have yet to see a solid walkthrough of how my situation is made worse because of an explicit patent grant. I believe the fear of a grant revocation also revoking the BSD copyright license has been thoroughly settled. If that were the case that would be an issue but FB themselves have put in writing that that is not the case.
solomatov 9y ago
> I'm safe from Facebook suing me specially IANAL. You are safe only if you use any React related patents. They are free to sue for infringement of any other patents they hold.
sandGorgon 9y ago
> for infringing some other software patents I hold, I lose the patent grant for any potential patents Facebook might hold concerning React. Not just React - you also lose status on Caffe2, React Native and ReasonML.
- kjsthree 9y ago
  Yes, you're absolutely correct. So the takeaway would be not to bring software patent litigation to Facebook's door flippantly. A thing I'm absolutely in favor of. I can't believe I'm defending Facebook though. A company who's data-mining practices completely creep me out. I definitely try to reduce the reach of their tentacles into my life but in this case I see nothing to take issue with.
  - slavik81 9y ago
    The patent clause applies to all patents, not just software patents.
  - sandGorgon 9y ago
    Nobody is denying this. The real problem actually is the other way around. If Facebook infringes on your IP, you still can't do anything about it..at the risk of losing patent cover. Im really not sure how it can be worded to let legitimate lawsuits through. But that is the problem. Tomorrow if you build a new AI algorithm on caffe2, FB can pretty much use the whole code and you would be bound by the patent clauses.
- sambe 9y ago
  Surely it should also be emphasised that any competing products that happen to violate those patents would be off limits? The emphasis in most of these discussions is that you have to get off React, but it's likely you couldn't move to a direct competitor either.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
ThrowAwayFB11 9y ago
My friends and I have dealt with Facebook before in various capacities, and I can tell you that they play DIRTY, and if it comes down to it, they won't hesitate to use the aforementioned PATENTS license in their favor against you. I know many stories like this; Facebook M&A meets with the founders of a promising company under the guise of a "we're about to acquire you" only to have Facebook copy their companies and then follow up with Facebook's lawyers knocking on said startups' doors to shut them down. As such, I will not touch Facebook with a 10 foot pole, and I strongly recommend, from personal experience, that you do the same with your company.
- StreamBright 9y ago
  Not sure what do not touch means in this case.
- gtsteve 9y ago
  It's not just Facebook - I've heard of other M&A teams working in a similar way. If you're considerably further ahead than them then they'll buy your company, otherwise they'll go for a clone strategy instead. Since I started looking into the M&A world I've learned you just can't take stuff like this too personally. Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/corpdev.html http://www.paulgraham.com/corpdev.html
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Isn't this the usual way of the larger monopolistic corporations ? As they grow they lose their ability to innovate (if they had some in the first place) and rely on bullying, buying, copying, suing the little players out of existence.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jameside 9y ago
Hi, author of the post here. I updated the post last night to be more precise about losing the patent grant specifically and not other rights like the copyright license.
bigbugbag 9y ago
It's not fantastic because this is not an actual floss license.

abritinthebay 9y ago

Indeed. I seems to me that all of this noice is due to programmers thinking they understand basic law. They don’t. Most developers don’t understand basic copyright, let alone licenses and grants.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

chaostheory 9y ago

What happens when those patents are no longer potential and have been granted to Facebook?

Lazare 9y ago
A patent application must be filed within 1 year of public disclosure or its barred, and React has been out for years. And any pending application filed during that 1 year window would be visible now, so... ...nothing is going to happen. There's no submarine patents possible here. (...from Facebook, anyhow.)
- chaostheory 9y ago
  This license isn't exclusive to React. Assuming that you're correct and Facebook's legal team made a mistake, what happens when everything is filed correctly with another project? What happens when another company uses this? I can't help but feel that the big picture is being missed. If Facebook's open source projects don't lose momentum, other companies will be tempted to do follow
- e9 9y ago
  FYI this patent was published recently: "Automatic overdraw reduction before rendering" https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242?dq=facebook+user+interface+react+virtual+dom&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWo8DVvZzWAhWojlQKHXRDAkgQ6AEIPzAD https://www.google.com/patents/US20170221242?dq=facebook+use...
  - Lazare 9y ago
    Fascinating. Well, good to know, and that does change thing a bit. So, better make sure nothing you use has any form of smart overdraw reduction, dom diffing, etc., before you pick a patent fight with Facebook. Of course, a cursory glance suggests every modern frontend UI library will violate that patent, so I still don't see a reason to avoid React; Vue, Angular, and recent versions of Ember are all just as much in violation. Guess we're back to static HTML and PHP. :) (More seriously, hopefully it won't go anywhere; it's pretty clearly got a ton of prior art. But given how broken the patent system is, who knows?)
    - mickronome 9y ago
      Yeah, the claims appears to be the usual ”-We do the desktop thing, but it's actually completely a different thing because we implement it in a browser, and it's natural confines". However, imho one of the major problems with software related patents is allowing an extremely ambiguous language in a field where exact language is the native form of expression. It simultaneously makes it excessively expensive to challenge a patent, and almost impossible to divine if a particular implementation is covered. There is code I've written that a client wanted to patent, and knowing the nature of the code, it's not a snowball's chance in hell I would recognise that (my own) algorithm if it was written in patentese, at least without spending days on it. I don't even want to think about how many hours of legal fees it would cost to challenge even such a minor algorithm.

gnicholas 9y ago

> If I'm using React and I decide to sue Facebook for infringing some other software patents I hold, I lose the patent grant for any potential patents Facebook might hold concerning React. Which they could go after me with if they do indeed hold such patents. There's nothing proactively forcing me off React. It seems like you're assuming that there's a decent chance that FB doesn't actually hold any patents on React. This seems unlikely, and is contradicted by what the author wrote (indicating that popular React alternatives may also infringe FB patents). Or am I not understanding your line of thinking? My view, as a former lawyer, is that if you want to sue FB for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using React. Willful infringement = treble damages.

notacoward 9y ago
> if you want to sue FB for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using React. If you want to sue any company for patent infringement, you would be very unwise to continue using their software under most common licenses. The most-touted alternatives to React are plain MIT license with no patent grant at all, creating exactly the same risk. Why does the license that prevents you from being sued first get all the condemnation?
- solomatov 9y ago
  > The most-touted alternatives to React are plain MIT license with no patent grant at all IANAL, but as far as I understand, MIT license contains implicit patent grant.
  - singron 9y ago
    If these projects are covered by Facebook patents, it doesn't matter if their license has a patent grant since they don't own rights to the Facebook patents.
    - kjsthree 9y ago
      Exactly! I have yet to see a solid walkthrough of how my situation is made worse because of an explicit patent grant. I believe the fear of a grant revocation also revoking the BSD copyright license has been thoroughly settled. If that were the case that would be an issue but FB themselves have put in writing that that is not the case.

solomatov 9y ago

> I'm safe from Facebook suing me specially IANAL. You are safe only if you use any React related patents. They are free to sue for infringement of any other patents they hold.

sandGorgon 9y ago

> for infringing some other software patents I hold, I lose the patent grant for any potential patents Facebook might hold concerning React. Not just React - you also lose status on Caffe2, React Native and ReasonML.

kjsthree 9y ago
Yes, you're absolutely correct. So the takeaway would be not to bring software patent litigation to Facebook's door flippantly. A thing I'm absolutely in favor of. I can't believe I'm defending Facebook though. A company who's data-mining practices completely creep me out. I definitely try to reduce the reach of their tentacles into my life but in this case I see nothing to take issue with.
- slavik81 9y ago
  The patent clause applies to all patents, not just software patents.
- sandGorgon 9y ago
  Nobody is denying this. The real problem actually is the other way around. If Facebook infringes on your IP, you still can't do anything about it..at the risk of losing patent cover. Im really not sure how it can be worded to let legitimate lawsuits through. But that is the problem. Tomorrow if you build a new AI algorithm on caffe2, FB can pretty much use the whole code and you would be bound by the patent clauses.
sambe 9y ago
Surely it should also be emphasised that any competing products that happen to violate those patents would be off limits? The emphasis in most of these discussions is that you have to get off React, but it's likely you couldn't move to a direct competitor either.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

ThrowAwayFB11 9y ago

My friends and I have dealt with Facebook before in various capacities, and I can tell you that they play DIRTY, and if it comes down to it, they won't hesitate to use the aforementioned PATENTS license in their favor against you. I know many stories like this; Facebook M&A meets with the founders of a promising company under the guise of a "we're about to acquire you" only to have Facebook copy their companies and then follow up with Facebook's lawyers knocking on said startups' doors to shut them down. As such, I will not touch Facebook with a 10 foot pole, and I strongly recommend, from personal experience, that you do the same with your company.

StreamBright 9y ago
Not sure what do not touch means in this case.
gtsteve 9y ago
It's not just Facebook - I've heard of other M&A teams working in a similar way. If you're considerably further ahead than them then they'll buy your company, otherwise they'll go for a clone strategy instead. Since I started looking into the M&A world I've learned you just can't take stuff like this too personally. Related: http://www.paulgraham.com/corpdev.html http://www.paulgraham.com/corpdev.html
bigbugbag 9y ago
Isn't this the usual way of the larger monopolistic corporations ? As they grow they lose their ability to innovate (if they had some in the first place) and rely on bullying, buying, copying, suing the little players out of existence.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jameside 9y ago

Hi, author of the post here. I updated the post last night to be more precise about losing the patent grant specifically and not other rights like the copyright license.

bigbugbag 9y ago

It's not fantastic because this is not an actual floss license.