3 ms·

No explicit patent grant has been functionally sufficient for decades so not sure what you're saying there. What about Google and Microsoft's FOSS contribution

No explicit patent grant has been functionally sufficient for decades so not sure what you're saying there. What about Google and Microsoft's FOSS contributions do you consider "non-efforts"?

notacoward 9y ago
> What about Google and Microsoft's FOSS contributions do you consider "non-efforts"? It's not the FOSS contributions that are non-efforts. It's the things that were never released at all. What percentage of engineers at Microsoft work on code that has been or ever will be open source? How is releasing 10% of your code with no patent grant better than releasing 20% of your code with a conditional one? Also, "no explicit patent grant has been sufficient" is no excuse for bashing a grant that has exactly that as its worst case. Any non-zero protection is still greater than zero. By way of analogy, would you yell at people on your team who you felt weren't working hard enough, then give a big pat on the back to one who played video games the whole time? Well, maybe you would, but an objective observer might think it seemed unfair. They might even wonder about what other motivations might be involved.
- rhencke 9y ago
  So, until all (or some large quantity) of software produced by an organization is open source, any software produced by an organization that is open source should not be considered worthwhile efforts?
  - notacoward 9y ago
    Not what I said at all. I'm just saying they shouldn't get more credit for a non-release than for a release. Apparently the HN attitude is: * Release lots of software with a conditional patent grant: awful. * Release lots of software with no grant (e.g. BSD): OK. * Release very little software, and that under the no-grant license (e.g. MS): you rock. Sorry, but that's completely f-ing backward. It's literally impossible to get to there from open-source principles, so what what principles are people starting from?
    - thingerr 9y ago
      Though untested, many think the BSD and similar licenses provide an implicit grant that can't be strategically revoked. Future case law to the contrary would make a lot of open software unusable or at least a legal minefield. Providing an explicit grant with explicit conditions of termination makes it easy for Facebook to selectively restrict use of anything that might be under patent in ANY of their projects. At best it's not in the spirit of FOSS and at worst it asymmetrically weaponizes open licenses. It's true that, practically, most companies won't ever have to worry about Facebook infringing their patents, but I think it's garbage on principle to reserve first-strike litigation while making it impossible for someone else to do the same and use software you've made available under a supposedly permissive license.
      - notacoward 9y ago
        > Though untested That phrase alone should swing the "legal risk" argument the other way that how it's being portrayed here.

No explicit patent grant has been functionally sufficient for decades so not sure what you're saying there. What about Google and Microsoft's FOSS contributions do you consider "non-efforts"?

notacoward 9y ago

> What about Google and Microsoft's FOSS contributions do you consider "non-efforts"? It's not the FOSS contributions that are non-efforts. It's the things that were never released at all. What percentage of engineers at Microsoft work on code that has been or ever will be open source? How is releasing 10% of your code with no patent grant better than releasing 20% of your code with a conditional one? Also, "no explicit patent grant has been sufficient" is no excuse for bashing a grant that has exactly that as its worst case. Any non-zero protection is still greater than zero. By way of analogy, would you yell at people on your team who you felt weren't working hard enough, then give a big pat on the back to one who played video games the whole time? Well, maybe you would, but an objective observer might think it seemed unfair. They might even wonder about what other motivations might be involved.

rhencke 9y ago
So, until all (or some large quantity) of software produced by an organization is open source, any software produced by an organization that is open source should not be considered worthwhile efforts?
- notacoward 9y ago
  Not what I said at all. I'm just saying they shouldn't get more credit for a non-release than for a release. Apparently the HN attitude is: * Release lots of software with a conditional patent grant: awful. * Release lots of software with no grant (e.g. BSD): OK. * Release very little software, and that under the no-grant license (e.g. MS): you rock. Sorry, but that's completely f-ing backward. It's literally impossible to get to there from open-source principles, so what what principles are people starting from?
  - thingerr 9y ago
    Though untested, many think the BSD and similar licenses provide an implicit grant that can't be strategically revoked. Future case law to the contrary would make a lot of open software unusable or at least a legal minefield. Providing an explicit grant with explicit conditions of termination makes it easy for Facebook to selectively restrict use of anything that might be under patent in ANY of their projects. At best it's not in the spirit of FOSS and at worst it asymmetrically weaponizes open licenses. It's true that, practically, most companies won't ever have to worry about Facebook infringing their patents, but I think it's garbage on principle to reserve first-strike litigation while making it impossible for someone else to do the same and use software you've made available under a supposedly permissive license.
    - notacoward 9y ago
      > Though untested That phrase alone should swing the "legal risk" argument the other way that how it's being portrayed here.