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> According to Job Pulse, in the New York City metropolitan area, recruiters have posted 17,066 software developer and engineer jobs over the past 12 months, an

> According to Job Pulse, in the New York City metropolitan area, recruiters have posted 17,066 software developer and engineer jobs over the past 12 months, and the median salary is $90,000. That is not very much pay for New York City prices. Maybe the listings are open because the pay is so atrocious.

quuquuquu 9y ago
Shit, sign me up, I'll work that job. I keep my expenses low enough out here in NYC as it is. The real issue in my opinion is that the postings exist, the interviews are happening, but the company has no desire to actually hire anyone...
- humanrebar 9y ago
  You can do better in NYC with the median amount of experience and skill. You can certainly do better in another city, especially if you're good at keeping your expenses low. Though maybe the discrepancy between all that and the pay is why so many companies can't find good developers...
  - quuquuquu 9y ago
    Let me put it to you this way. I send my resume and portfolio, I usually don't get a response. If I get a response, it is usually from a recruiter who is trying to "increase their metrics". Then I am denied by them or... I get in front of a hiring manager or even a VP. They string me out for a week or two. We talk for an hour or two, I do a presentation of my portfolio, I do a coding challenge. And then I'm denied ultimately, usually because I'm only able to do 9/10 things right, not 10/10. Question: the position goes unfilled for months. Is there really a position open then??? Hire me for 60,000 then. Make it a junior hire, at will hire, 1099 hire. What do I care? I'll work, and if you don't like it, you can fire me at any time. I don't understand why they only want to look for 150k rockstar-tier devs for 90k jobs.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Wow. Sorry about all that. I can't speak to your personal experience, but I'll stand by my experience that the salary is lowball. I would take that sort of listing as a signal that the employer doesn't really know much about market rate for engineers (or maybe hiring engineers in general). It's possible that you're seeing a lot of that sort of employer in your job search. If you're in NYC, I think a good tactic for a person trying to "break in" to the industry is to attend meetups for tech you're interested in. As you meet people and ask about their jobs, you'll get a feel for which employers are hiring for your expertise. And you might pick up some recommendations or relevant open-source experience, even, which would help in getting a decent offer. I'll also say that NYC is a rough city for breaking into tech. Rent's a lot cheaper in other cities. The jobs there can vary in sexiness, but an ultra-lowball pay rate is much more humane in a cheaper city. But even there, a ultra-low pay rate should be tolerated only long enough to prove, on your resume, that you are employable as a replacement-level warm body in tech work.
      - quuquuquu 9y ago
        Thank you so much for all of that advice!! It turns out that I am negotiating an offer out in SF. This absolutely confirms your statement about NYC, at least anecdotally. It's totally crazy, but my value is totally in the eye of the beholder XD
Retric 9y ago
The metro area is much larger than just downtown NYC. Median 3 person family income in NYC metro area is only 85,900 $. So, you really can comfortably live in that area making 90k. http://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/about/what-is-affordable-housing.page http://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/about/what-is-affordable-housin...
- tsunamifury 9y ago
  And median pay is 77k in SF yet that's also the poverty line for a family of four. Median pay doesn't mean good pay.
  - pmiller2 9y ago
    A better comparison is that it costs around $2500/month to rent a 1br in the Tenderloin now [0]. Given that you typically need to make 3x the monthly rent gross, minimum, to qualify for an apartment, that comes out to $90k a year. $90k/year to live in the Tenderloin! [0]: https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15841068/rent-report-sf-2017-map https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15841068/rent-report-sf-2017...
  - Retric 9y ago
    Dual income one or two kids would mean ~180k not median pay. NYC metro area sees plenty of ~50k + ~30k family's.
    - tsunamifury 9y ago
      False, median household is 90k
- vostok 9y ago
  The AMI is actually higher than the median income in NYC because it includes wealthy suburbs.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Median 3 person family income in NYC metro area is only 85,900 There are companies inside and outside NYC that will give a much better deal than that to the median-quality software developer. If the median developer takes that pay, barring some special circumstances, the best alternative to the negotiated agreement has much better cost-of-living-adjusted compensation. The employer could counter with statements about median pay in the area to demonstrate their perspective, but that doesn't make the alternative options less attractive.

quuquuquu 9y ago

Shit, sign me up, I'll work that job. I keep my expenses low enough out here in NYC as it is. The real issue in my opinion is that the postings exist, the interviews are happening, but the company has no desire to actually hire anyone...

humanrebar 9y ago
You can do better in NYC with the median amount of experience and skill. You can certainly do better in another city, especially if you're good at keeping your expenses low. Though maybe the discrepancy between all that and the pay is why so many companies can't find good developers...
- quuquuquu 9y ago
  Let me put it to you this way. I send my resume and portfolio, I usually don't get a response. If I get a response, it is usually from a recruiter who is trying to "increase their metrics". Then I am denied by them or... I get in front of a hiring manager or even a VP. They string me out for a week or two. We talk for an hour or two, I do a presentation of my portfolio, I do a coding challenge. And then I'm denied ultimately, usually because I'm only able to do 9/10 things right, not 10/10. Question: the position goes unfilled for months. Is there really a position open then??? Hire me for 60,000 then. Make it a junior hire, at will hire, 1099 hire. What do I care? I'll work, and if you don't like it, you can fire me at any time. I don't understand why they only want to look for 150k rockstar-tier devs for 90k jobs.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Wow. Sorry about all that. I can't speak to your personal experience, but I'll stand by my experience that the salary is lowball. I would take that sort of listing as a signal that the employer doesn't really know much about market rate for engineers (or maybe hiring engineers in general). It's possible that you're seeing a lot of that sort of employer in your job search. If you're in NYC, I think a good tactic for a person trying to "break in" to the industry is to attend meetups for tech you're interested in. As you meet people and ask about their jobs, you'll get a feel for which employers are hiring for your expertise. And you might pick up some recommendations or relevant open-source experience, even, which would help in getting a decent offer. I'll also say that NYC is a rough city for breaking into tech. Rent's a lot cheaper in other cities. The jobs there can vary in sexiness, but an ultra-lowball pay rate is much more humane in a cheaper city. But even there, a ultra-low pay rate should be tolerated only long enough to prove, on your resume, that you are employable as a replacement-level warm body in tech work.
    - quuquuquu 9y ago
      Thank you so much for all of that advice!! It turns out that I am negotiating an offer out in SF. This absolutely confirms your statement about NYC, at least anecdotally. It's totally crazy, but my value is totally in the eye of the beholder XD

Retric 9y ago

The metro area is much larger than just downtown NYC. Median 3 person family income in NYC metro area is only 85,900 $. So, you really can comfortably live in that area making 90k. http://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/about/what-is-affordable-housing.page http://www1.nyc.gov/site/hpd/about/what-is-affordable-housin...

tsunamifury 9y ago
And median pay is 77k in SF yet that's also the poverty line for a family of four. Median pay doesn't mean good pay.
- pmiller2 9y ago
  A better comparison is that it costs around $2500/month to rent a 1br in the Tenderloin now [0]. Given that you typically need to make 3x the monthly rent gross, minimum, to qualify for an apartment, that comes out to $90k a year. $90k/year to live in the Tenderloin! [0]: https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15841068/rent-report-sf-2017-map https://sf.curbed.com/2017/6/20/15841068/rent-report-sf-2017...
- Retric 9y ago
  Dual income one or two kids would mean ~180k not median pay. NYC metro area sees plenty of ~50k + ~30k family's.
  - tsunamifury 9y ago
    False, median household is 90k
vostok 9y ago
The AMI is actually higher than the median income in NYC because it includes wealthy suburbs.
humanrebar 9y ago
> Median 3 person family income in NYC metro area is only 85,900 There are companies inside and outside NYC that will give a much better deal than that to the median-quality software developer. If the median developer takes that pay, barring some special circumstances, the best alternative to the negotiated agreement has much better cost-of-living-adjusted compensation. The employer could counter with statements about median pay in the area to demonstrate their perspective, but that doesn't make the alternative options less attractive.