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I'm a woman and these sorts of things bug me. OK, so there aren't enough women in tech. Perhaps that's because they just don't want to be in tech! Sure I've had

by liedra 16y ago

I'm a woman and these sorts of things bug me. OK, so there aren't enough women in tech. Perhaps that's because they just don't want to be in tech! Sure I've had my share of "oh, well, there's no way you'd be good/no way you know what you're talking about because you're a woman" or similar sexist attitudes, but I don't want to work for those sorts of people anyway. IMO if you want to be in tech, you'll find a way to do what you want to do. People (all people! not just women!) who are motivated to do something will do what's necessary to achieve it. Sure it's nice to have another woman to chat to occasionally when you run into sexist jerks, but otherwise I get on just fine with people of any gender because I'm confident and know my stuff, work hard, and am pretty laid back. Probably helps that I grew up with the net a bit though (I'm almost 30) so am no longer horrified by gutter humour or swear words, or other "unladylike" things.

hazzen 16y ago
In my 3 years of TAing undergrad computer science intro classes, I am going to say you are wrong. The number of incredibly smart, gifted women who believed they were failing the course despite having some of the best scores was staggering. Many of them simply believed they were not good enough to compete with the loud-mouthed egotistical dicks in the class. They had no role models and no belief that they were good enough to compete with the guys who had been using computers since they were five. I am not saying this is a problem for all women or that it only affects women, but it is still a problem that needs to be solved. Role models help, encouragement helps, and having someone around to convince these students they aren't stupid helps. I would rather more women get into TAing intro classes than this program, but take what you can get.
- liedra 16y ago
  Wow, that's really sad. :( Maybe it was the lack of loud-mouthed dicks in my courses, but all the women I met in my compsci degree who were doing well actually really enjoyed it and, well, did well. (Or perhaps it's how our courses were set up; there wasn't much opportunity for people to be dicks). I will admit, it can be quite intimidating as a woman to, say, start going to things like Linux Users Groups though; back when I first joined my local one (late 90s, early 2000s?) there were a lot of... intimidating people there. But there were also a number of women, and a few friends of mine also there, which was good for that moral support. But then again, these people are loud mouthed egotistical dicks to everyone that has an opposing view to them, usually, not just women (e.g. if they use emacs and you use vim, be prepared!). In these very charged environments it only really came up a couple of times: one of these that happened to me was one of the main examples used in the "women in linux howto" (which I'm not a fan of actually, because I think it causes a bit of a negative feedback loop), and was dealt with very well by both male and female members of the group. Curiously, due to that howto, I still get email from concerned guys hoping that I haven't been turned off LUGs for the rest of my life! I definitely think it's a great idea to have more women in tech, especially education, but I think that they need to feel like they have a passion for it. And all the incentives, etc. make for a bit of a bad taste in the mouth w.r.t. that :)
  - tibbon 16y ago
    You touch on a good point. Being in this field is intimidating for everyone! It is impossible to be the master of everything, and yet there are people who will challenge you on every front. Showing up to some groups, posting on some boards (like this one even) and jumping into the conversation can be outright terrifying. My XY-card doesn't make it instantly simple to show up to any event and feel comfortable.
bdr 16y ago
Saying "people who are motivated to do something will do what's necessary to achieve it" presents a false dichotomy. I learned the magnitude of this mistake from building websites. Adding just one more step to a sign-up process can greatly reduce the number of signupse. That means there are people who were "motivated" to sign up, but gave up. Maybe sexism or lack of role models are like those extra steps.
- liedra 16y ago
  Yeah, you're right, I wasn't really expressing myself very well I think, which will teach me to start typing before my first coffee of the day :) I actually think a lot of the problem is the culturally linked gender roles that society pushes on kids from an early age. The "girls play with dolls, boys play with cars" type stuff. I was always a tomboy and hated dolls, I was far more interested in cars and planes and Lego than more girly toys (though when peer pressure started to become a part of my life I felt left out without Barbies and things). The point being, at my academically-selective girls high school, we had only a tiny computer room (and not much done in there), no metalwork or woodwork or anything like that classes, but lots of sewing and cooking as our "design and technology" part. Us girls weren't really encouraged to use computers much, the only thing that really got me into it was my dad, who was (and still is) an oldskool computer nerd. I'm sure if we'd had more opportunities to do more with computing there would have been more women going into computer-related degrees at university, for example. But these distinctions are things that need to be addressed well before the getting-to-uni part. I just get the distinct impression that to get more women into these sorts of areas they need to be more exposed to them from an earlier age, so it's part of their normal expectations about what they can do with their life, much like becoming a doctor or a lawyer is these days, when in the past these were most definitely male dominated areas.

by liedra 16y ago

hazzen 16y ago

In my 3 years of TAing undergrad computer science intro classes, I am going to say you are wrong. The number of incredibly smart, gifted women who believed they were failing the course despite having some of the best scores was staggering. Many of them simply believed they were not good enough to compete with the loud-mouthed egotistical dicks in the class. They had no role models and no belief that they were good enough to compete with the guys who had been using computers since they were five. I am not saying this is a problem for all women or that it only affects women, but it is still a problem that needs to be solved. Role models help, encouragement helps, and having someone around to convince these students they aren't stupid helps. I would rather more women get into TAing intro classes than this program, but take what you can get.

liedra 16y ago
Wow, that's really sad. :( Maybe it was the lack of loud-mouthed dicks in my courses, but all the women I met in my compsci degree who were doing well actually really enjoyed it and, well, did well. (Or perhaps it's how our courses were set up; there wasn't much opportunity for people to be dicks). I will admit, it can be quite intimidating as a woman to, say, start going to things like Linux Users Groups though; back when I first joined my local one (late 90s, early 2000s?) there were a lot of... intimidating people there. But there were also a number of women, and a few friends of mine also there, which was good for that moral support. But then again, these people are loud mouthed egotistical dicks to everyone that has an opposing view to them, usually, not just women (e.g. if they use emacs and you use vim, be prepared!). In these very charged environments it only really came up a couple of times: one of these that happened to me was one of the main examples used in the "women in linux howto" (which I'm not a fan of actually, because I think it causes a bit of a negative feedback loop), and was dealt with very well by both male and female members of the group. Curiously, due to that howto, I still get email from concerned guys hoping that I haven't been turned off LUGs for the rest of my life! I definitely think it's a great idea to have more women in tech, especially education, but I think that they need to feel like they have a passion for it. And all the incentives, etc. make for a bit of a bad taste in the mouth w.r.t. that :)
- tibbon 16y ago
  You touch on a good point. Being in this field is intimidating for everyone! It is impossible to be the master of everything, and yet there are people who will challenge you on every front. Showing up to some groups, posting on some boards (like this one even) and jumping into the conversation can be outright terrifying. My XY-card doesn't make it instantly simple to show up to any event and feel comfortable.

bdr 16y ago

Saying "people who are motivated to do something will do what's necessary to achieve it" presents a false dichotomy. I learned the magnitude of this mistake from building websites. Adding just one more step to a sign-up process can greatly reduce the number of signupse. That means there are people who were "motivated" to sign up, but gave up. Maybe sexism or lack of role models are like those extra steps.

liedra 16y ago
Yeah, you're right, I wasn't really expressing myself very well I think, which will teach me to start typing before my first coffee of the day :) I actually think a lot of the problem is the culturally linked gender roles that society pushes on kids from an early age. The "girls play with dolls, boys play with cars" type stuff. I was always a tomboy and hated dolls, I was far more interested in cars and planes and Lego than more girly toys (though when peer pressure started to become a part of my life I felt left out without Barbies and things). The point being, at my academically-selective girls high school, we had only a tiny computer room (and not much done in there), no metalwork or woodwork or anything like that classes, but lots of sewing and cooking as our "design and technology" part. Us girls weren't really encouraged to use computers much, the only thing that really got me into it was my dad, who was (and still is) an oldskool computer nerd. I'm sure if we'd had more opportunities to do more with computing there would have been more women going into computer-related degrees at university, for example. But these distinctions are things that need to be addressed well before the getting-to-uni part. I just get the distinct impression that to get more women into these sorts of areas they need to be more exposed to them from an earlier age, so it's part of their normal expectations about what they can do with their life, much like becoming a doctor or a lawyer is these days, when in the past these were most definitely male dominated areas.