4 ms·

In a lot of cases, just "building up" more would probably lead to the population density getting too high, and I think the point is often missed that not everyw

In a lot of cases, just "building up" more would probably lead to the population density getting too high, and I think the point is often missed that not everywhere has ground suitable for the foundations taller buildings need. Really, cities seem like a "necessary evil" to me and I hope they become less important and somewhat phased out as employers realize they can replace a lot of expensive city office space with telecommuting. I dread the thought I might have to move into one for a job soon until I have enough experience on paper to get steady remote jobs - I've been to a lot of cities for conventions or just passing through and I don't understand what possible appeal they have. I'm half inclined to believe a lot of the people waxing romantic about cities have never been to one. You get harassed for money all the time and every time I go to a convention I hear stories of people getting assaulted for refusing, they don't look nice unless you're looking on from miles away at a few skylines like NYC's with the new WTC, you have to be a lot more on guard and pay more attention to your surroundings, everything is more expensive, and all the stores/restaurants are overcrowded a lot of the time. It's a mystery to me why there's such an attitude against suburbs on HN. Sure, suburban town development is technically less resource-efficient than packing everything together like you're designing a circuit board to be mass-produced, but I don't think it's worth the cost.

baron816 9y ago
Then don't build everywhere. Only build in places that have ground suitable for the foundations taller buildings need. If we're building new cities, we can make some wise decisions on where to do that beforehand. Not everyone has to live in one of my cities. If you don't like population density, then you can live somewhere else. But the problem we have now is that there are a lot of people who want to live in densely populated places, but can't because the cost of living is too high.
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  Are you sure people "want to live in densely populated places" and don't just want to live somewhere with jobs in their field, and wouldn't live somewhere else if the jobs were there?
  - baron816 9y ago
    Yes, I'm sure. You're projecting. People with the capacity to live anywhere in the world still pay crazy amounts of money to live in densely populated cities like New York, London, Paris, and Hong Kong. There are many books out there about why, but I think the most compelling reason is the social opportunities they provide. Humans are generally social beings, they enjoy spending time with other humans. Life out in the suburbs is often (but not always) much more solitary. For most people, being alone in a big house with a lot of stuff doesn't make them happy. Having real experiences with those they're close with makes them happy.
    - wott 9y ago
      People walk out of their flat, take the lift to the garage (avoiding eye contact), sit alone in their car, spend 30 minutes grumbling at the traffic and other drivers' behaviour, park on the company lot, walk out of the office 10 hours later, sit alone in their car, spend 40 minutes (dammit!) bitching about the traffic and other drivers' behaviour, stop at the supermarket, say hello-thanks-goodbye to the cashier, spend 10 minutes in their car, park into their garage, take the lift to their flat (avoiding eye contact), open and lock the door. Repeat on the next day. You can replace the garage and the car by the fastest possible walk to the underground station, grumbling at slower people, and 30 minutes in the tube, avoiding any eye contact by looking at their smartphone/newspaper/book and avoiding any other interaction with headphone. And on Friday afternoon or evening, they get out of the city as fast as possible, until Sunday evening. That's "social beings enjoying spending time with other humans in cities". You don't even know 2 people in your own building, when you live in a city. You can lay on the side-walk having a cardiac arrest and people will walk by you, if not over you.
      - msla 9y ago
        People want to live in dense regions because they want to have good restaurants and good public services and things to do on the weekend outside of their homes, other than hunting and fishing. So this: > And on Friday afternoon or evening, they get out of the city as fast as possible, until Sunday evening. This isn't universal. Not even close. Plus, you can't ignore the political aspect: Someone with progressive politics will be happier in a city than the country, at least in America, and that's been true a very long time.
dionidium 9y ago
People aren't going to want to stop living near other people any time soon. Not everybody likes living in big urban areas (as you demonstrate), for the same reasons that some people really like social events and others don't. But the people who like dense social networks really like them and don't want to live in the suburbs. You're extrapolating too far from your own preferences. I don't like watermelon, but I don't generalize from that to a future where something replaces watermelon. I assume people are eating watermelon because they do like it.
- dkersten 9y ago
  > You're extrapolating too far from your own preferences. Aren't you doing the same, but in the other direction?
barrkel 9y ago
The best things about cities come from density combined with diversity. Having a lot of diversity means there's lots of niche interests; having a lot of density means those niche interests have enough adherents to come together to create communities; whether they're specialist shops, restaurants, discussion groups, music, theatre, political movements, sexual interests - whatever - the more niche your interest is, the more likely you'll only find like-minded people in a city. I could say I don't understand why people don't live in cities. The countryside is boring - if you're not interested in the outdoors, there's nothing to do. Suburbs make some sense for people in middle adulthood to raise children in a safer environment without being too far from the city, but otherwise they're just a space / commute tradeoff, getting more space for your money than somewhere closer.
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  I don't think those things are always exclusive to cities. All of them go on in malls/community centers/etc. either in suburbs or the commercially zoned areas a few minutes away from them, or for some of them, certainly at the colleges. There will also tend to be more compact "mini-cities" (a real term probably exists) nearby with a lot more niche shops and different culture. I'm sure some of the more niche things do only go on in cities but just the internet plus conventions has been enough for me. There are some more upsides to going a bit further into the country. No nearby neighbors means you can have an expectation of privacy doing whatever you want in the back yard and have no potential for noise complaints if you wanted to do something like an event with music or shoot guns, and on the flip side not hear any noise from neighbors. You'd also have more room to do home improvements if you wanted and have a much easier time getting zoned to build something like a fallout shelter if that kind of thing interests you or dig a pond.
- rebuilder 9y ago
  As a parent, I've realized that all the things I used to love about cities are things I have no time or interest for now. Cities seem best suited for teens and young adults, but that's a minority of the population at any given time. I'm sure there's a notable group of people who want to live in a city all their lives, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that as people start to have kids, they seem to start wanting to move out of cities.
pjc50 9y ago
Cities come in a wide variety of sizes.

baron816 9y ago

Then don't build everywhere. Only build in places that have ground suitable for the foundations taller buildings need. If we're building new cities, we can make some wise decisions on where to do that beforehand. Not everyone has to live in one of my cities. If you don't like population density, then you can live somewhere else. But the problem we have now is that there are a lot of people who want to live in densely populated places, but can't because the cost of living is too high.

jimmaswell 9y ago
Are you sure people "want to live in densely populated places" and don't just want to live somewhere with jobs in their field, and wouldn't live somewhere else if the jobs were there?
- baron816 9y ago
  Yes, I'm sure. You're projecting. People with the capacity to live anywhere in the world still pay crazy amounts of money to live in densely populated cities like New York, London, Paris, and Hong Kong. There are many books out there about why, but I think the most compelling reason is the social opportunities they provide. Humans are generally social beings, they enjoy spending time with other humans. Life out in the suburbs is often (but not always) much more solitary. For most people, being alone in a big house with a lot of stuff doesn't make them happy. Having real experiences with those they're close with makes them happy.
  - wott 9y ago
    People walk out of their flat, take the lift to the garage (avoiding eye contact), sit alone in their car, spend 30 minutes grumbling at the traffic and other drivers' behaviour, park on the company lot, walk out of the office 10 hours later, sit alone in their car, spend 40 minutes (dammit!) bitching about the traffic and other drivers' behaviour, stop at the supermarket, say hello-thanks-goodbye to the cashier, spend 10 minutes in their car, park into their garage, take the lift to their flat (avoiding eye contact), open and lock the door. Repeat on the next day. You can replace the garage and the car by the fastest possible walk to the underground station, grumbling at slower people, and 30 minutes in the tube, avoiding any eye contact by looking at their smartphone/newspaper/book and avoiding any other interaction with headphone. And on Friday afternoon or evening, they get out of the city as fast as possible, until Sunday evening. That's "social beings enjoying spending time with other humans in cities". You don't even know 2 people in your own building, when you live in a city. You can lay on the side-walk having a cardiac arrest and people will walk by you, if not over you.
    - msla 9y ago
      People want to live in dense regions because they want to have good restaurants and good public services and things to do on the weekend outside of their homes, other than hunting and fishing. So this: > And on Friday afternoon or evening, they get out of the city as fast as possible, until Sunday evening. This isn't universal. Not even close. Plus, you can't ignore the political aspect: Someone with progressive politics will be happier in a city than the country, at least in America, and that's been true a very long time.

dionidium 9y ago

People aren't going to want to stop living near other people any time soon. Not everybody likes living in big urban areas (as you demonstrate), for the same reasons that some people really like social events and others don't. But the people who like dense social networks really like them and don't want to live in the suburbs. You're extrapolating too far from your own preferences. I don't like watermelon, but I don't generalize from that to a future where something replaces watermelon. I assume people are eating watermelon because they do like it.

dkersten 9y ago
> You're extrapolating too far from your own preferences. Aren't you doing the same, but in the other direction?

barrkel 9y ago

The best things about cities come from density combined with diversity. Having a lot of diversity means there's lots of niche interests; having a lot of density means those niche interests have enough adherents to come together to create communities; whether they're specialist shops, restaurants, discussion groups, music, theatre, political movements, sexual interests - whatever - the more niche your interest is, the more likely you'll only find like-minded people in a city. I could say I don't understand why people don't live in cities. The countryside is boring - if you're not interested in the outdoors, there's nothing to do. Suburbs make some sense for people in middle adulthood to raise children in a safer environment without being too far from the city, but otherwise they're just a space / commute tradeoff, getting more space for your money than somewhere closer.

jimmaswell 9y ago
I don't think those things are always exclusive to cities. All of them go on in malls/community centers/etc. either in suburbs or the commercially zoned areas a few minutes away from them, or for some of them, certainly at the colleges. There will also tend to be more compact "mini-cities" (a real term probably exists) nearby with a lot more niche shops and different culture. I'm sure some of the more niche things do only go on in cities but just the internet plus conventions has been enough for me. There are some more upsides to going a bit further into the country. No nearby neighbors means you can have an expectation of privacy doing whatever you want in the back yard and have no potential for noise complaints if you wanted to do something like an event with music or shoot guns, and on the flip side not hear any noise from neighbors. You'd also have more room to do home improvements if you wanted and have a much easier time getting zoned to build something like a fallout shelter if that kind of thing interests you or dig a pond.
rebuilder 9y ago
As a parent, I've realized that all the things I used to love about cities are things I have no time or interest for now. Cities seem best suited for teens and young adults, but that's a minority of the population at any given time. I'm sure there's a notable group of people who want to live in a city all their lives, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that as people start to have kids, they seem to start wanting to move out of cities.

pjc50 9y ago

Cities come in a wide variety of sizes.