4 ms·

Some things can't be easily fixed. It can take years or even decades to restore damaged wilderness to something approaching its natural state.

by kec 9y ago

Clubber 9y ago
Yes, I mean if it is something like toxic waste like Love Canal, that's one thing, but if it's dumping trash, that's easily remedied. Also, once the trash is removed, nature will typically revert to it's natural state all by itself. Humankind has to actively prevent nature from engulfing cities. But to say, "they left trash everywhere, FELONY!" is a seriously emotional reaction. Criminal justice should be a rational not emotional thing. Is dumping trash the same thing as rape, robbery or murder? Certainly not. Felonies should be reserved for the harshest crimes against people, not littering or ingesting things. The US has more people incarcerated, not only per capita, but as a total number than any other country in the developed world. This includes China. That statistic shows a serious, systemic problem with our justice system. http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-popula... The American prison system is massive. So massive that its estimated turnover of $74 billion eclipses the GDP of 133 nations. https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-american-prison-system https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-america...
- briandear 9y ago
  Kind of silly to compare China — they have very, very few murderers, drug traffickers and rapists in prison — their rapidly enforced death penalty sees to that.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Even if China imprisoned rather than executed, we'd still have a much higher number imprisoned. The US prison population is 33% higher total than China and almost 7x higher per capita. I guess you don't realize how messed up our justice system is. When you look at the numbers, it's a real eye opener. China is a distant #2 in total imprisoned yet they are 4x more populated than the US. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Rates_of_execution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Ra... The number of executions has dropped significantly since the Supreme People’s Court regained the power to review all death sentences in 2007; for instance, the Dui Hua Foundation estimates that China executed 12,000 people in 2002, 6,500 people in 2007, and roughly 2,400 in 2013 and 2014. For actual numbers, we have 2.1 million people imprisoned and China has 1.6 million.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      To be fair we probably have more violent and incorrigible people than China. For whatever reason.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        Or our justice system is systemically broken.
        mythrwy 9y ago
        Or both.
      - mythrwy 9y ago
        I'm really surprised at least several people don't believe this may be the case. Suspecting ideology is maybe being substituted for objective reality? The "line" is that we have so many people locked up because of unjust (racist, drugs, whatever) policies. And no doubt this is a very large component of the problem. However, a very large number of people in prisons are dangerous or violent people who shouldn't be out in society at all and I don't think we could say their incarnation is discriminatory or unjust (although we could justifiably speak about how much of an anti pattern the current prison system.. but that's another topic). Note: I don't say all, or even most in prisons fit this bill but many do. I guess the point is a question. Why do we have such large number of violent and criminally minded people in the US? Do we have a larger number than China even taking into account population size differences? I bet we do. TLDR, criminal justice system is broken in many ways, agreed. But I posit we (in the US) have a more violent and criminal population also. I think this is worth exploring rather than just parroting whatever anti-establishment line is in vogue at the moment.
        mythrwy 9y ago
        Just to add, we can't blame the large prison population on drug offenses alone, although we do jail a lot of people for drugs (and should jail none IMOP) it's not the whole picture, particularly with state prisons where only about 1 in 5 people are jailed for drug offenses (Violent crimes being the biggest part of that pie). Federal Drug incarcerations are a much higher percent, but this isn't low level users either. When we ask, "why do we have so many people locked up?" we also should ask "why do we have so many people we need to lock up"? What the hell is our problem as a society that it's like this? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html
- kec 9y ago
  The problem isn’t trash, it’s clearcutting and soil erosion. Neither can be quickly or easily fixed, erosion especially isn’t going to be repaired without intervention.
nine_k 9y ago
OK, we've caught the perpetrators, spent a lot of taxpayers' money on keeping them in prison, then pushed out, mostly unable to work (except low-paying jobs), almost inviting them to do some worse offense just to feed themselves. How did all that help restore the ruined patch of land?
- kec 9y ago
  Deterrent for others. Weed farming is lucrative, even large fines wouldn’t be a large deterrant.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    Ruining a person's life is not a good deterrent.

Some things can't be easily fixed. It can take years or even decades to restore damaged wilderness to something approaching its natural state.

by kec 9y ago

Some things can't be easily fixed. It can take years or even decades to restore damaged wilderness to something approaching its natural state.

Clubber 9y ago

Yes, I mean if it is something like toxic waste like Love Canal, that's one thing, but if it's dumping trash, that's easily remedied. Also, once the trash is removed, nature will typically revert to it's natural state all by itself. Humankind has to actively prevent nature from engulfing cities. But to say, "they left trash everywhere, FELONY!" is a seriously emotional reaction. Criminal justice should be a rational not emotional thing. Is dumping trash the same thing as rape, robbery or murder? Certainly not. Felonies should be reserved for the harshest crimes against people, not littering or ingesting things. The US has more people incarcerated, not only per capita, but as a total number than any other country in the developed world. This includes China. That statistic shows a serious, systemic problem with our justice system. http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-population-total?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All http://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison-popula... The American prison system is massive. So massive that its estimated turnover of $74 billion eclipses the GDP of 133 nations. https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-american-prison-system https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-economics-of-the-america...

briandear 9y ago
Kind of silly to compare China — they have very, very few murderers, drug traffickers and rapists in prison — their rapidly enforced death penalty sees to that.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Even if China imprisoned rather than executed, we'd still have a much higher number imprisoned. The US prison population is 33% higher total than China and almost 7x higher per capita. I guess you don't realize how messed up our justice system is. When you look at the numbers, it's a real eye opener. China is a distant #2 in total imprisoned yet they are 4x more populated than the US. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Rates_of_execution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China#Ra... The number of executions has dropped significantly since the Supreme People’s Court regained the power to review all death sentences in 2007; for instance, the Dui Hua Foundation estimates that China executed 12,000 people in 2002, 6,500 people in 2007, and roughly 2,400 in 2013 and 2014. For actual numbers, we have 2.1 million people imprisoned and China has 1.6 million.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
    To be fair we probably have more violent and incorrigible people than China. For whatever reason.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      Or our justice system is systemically broken.
      - mythrwy 9y ago
        Or both.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      I'm really surprised at least several people don't believe this may be the case. Suspecting ideology is maybe being substituted for objective reality? The "line" is that we have so many people locked up because of unjust (racist, drugs, whatever) policies. And no doubt this is a very large component of the problem. However, a very large number of people in prisons are dangerous or violent people who shouldn't be out in society at all and I don't think we could say their incarnation is discriminatory or unjust (although we could justifiably speak about how much of an anti pattern the current prison system.. but that's another topic). Note: I don't say all, or even most in prisons fit this bill but many do. I guess the point is a question. Why do we have such large number of violent and criminally minded people in the US? Do we have a larger number than China even taking into account population size differences? I bet we do. TLDR, criminal justice system is broken in many ways, agreed. But I posit we (in the US) have a more violent and criminal population also. I think this is worth exploring rather than just parroting whatever anti-establishment line is in vogue at the moment.
      - mythrwy 9y ago
        Just to add, we can't blame the large prison population on drug offenses alone, although we do jail a lot of people for drugs (and should jail none IMOP) it's not the whole picture, particularly with state prisons where only about 1 in 5 people are jailed for drug offenses (Violent crimes being the biggest part of that pie). Federal Drug incarcerations are a much higher percent, but this isn't low level users either. When we ask, "why do we have so many people locked up?" we also should ask "why do we have so many people we need to lock up"? What the hell is our problem as a society that it's like this? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2016.html
kec 9y ago
The problem isn’t trash, it’s clearcutting and soil erosion. Neither can be quickly or easily fixed, erosion especially isn’t going to be repaired without intervention.

nine_k 9y ago

OK, we've caught the perpetrators, spent a lot of taxpayers' money on keeping them in prison, then pushed out, mostly unable to work (except low-paying jobs), almost inviting them to do some worse offense just to feed themselves. How did all that help restore the ruined patch of land?

kec 9y ago
Deterrent for others. Weed farming is lucrative, even large fines wouldn’t be a large deterrant.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  Ruining a person's life is not a good deterrent.