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> I believe that all EU has a similar approach Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). The

> I believe that all EU has a similar approach Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). They can be seen as a primary key in many contexts, not only when dealing with social security or the public sector. I guess there could be more such countries. In Finland the official recommendation these days is that you should be very cautious with your social security number, because it allows identity theft. But that is a bit ridiculous recommendation, because there are many cases where you have to give your social security number. Persons appearing to be 29 our younger need to show an ID when buying alcohol. So they show their social security number to every supermarket cashier. It would be illegal for the cashier to write them down and collect them, but easy to do for someone who trains a bit to memorize a birthdate plus 4 digits for a minute or 2. Nearly impossible to track. In Germany on the other side having such universal primary key (a personal identifier) is deemed unconstitutional. Those who have been employed have a social security number, but it's not used for any other purpose than pensions. Probably most health insurances assign a number to the insured person, but it is meaningless outside of that insurer. A life-long tax number was only introduced a couple of years ago. It was quite much criticized by privacy activists that it is too close to a forbidden person identifier. Person identifiers existed in GDR (former East), but their usage was forbidden by law after re-unification (except in some cases where facts of the past need to be tracked).

jaclaz 9y ago
>Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, the Codice Fiscale in Italy is the same, assigned at birth (or immigration). The difference is that it is not on the ID card (as it is - say - in Finland or Sweden or Denmark or Spain), but on a separate card. It is a "generic" identifying number with all public administration offices besides tax use, but of course it is always directly or indirectly connected with taxes. As an example if you sign a rent contract for a house (between privates), or if you sign a contract for utilities, or you buy a SIM card you need that number, if you ask for some specific kind of receipt (fattura) you need it, when you buy medicines (that may be partially deducted from taxes) you need it at the chemist/pharmacy. Fun fact: if you want to buy some cigarettes at a vending machine, you need the card to prove that you are 16 or older. . Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperati... Here is the list with documentation about each country: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?locale=en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?... Germany has it alright (and it is assigned at birth) though it is not on a card (ID card or otherwise) and is used only for Tax purposes: http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer/FAQ/01_Allgemeines/allgemeines_FAQ_node.html;jsessionid=54D37D775822E3F5B389EBE397F97BB5.live6832 http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifik... It has been introduced only relatively recently, 2011 I believe, to give you a reference in Italy it was introduced in 1976.
- usr1106 9y ago
  > Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: Exactly. In Finland (as in the US obviously) knowing someone's ID can be used to cause damage to the person. You can do some business in the name of the person, because it is generally but falsely assumed that knowing the number is an authentication method. In Germany, because the tax number is only used for income taxation. Already for other taxes, like sales tax, property tax etc. another number is used. I am not ware of any obvious way how one could misuse someone else's income tax number. The income tax number is completely obscure, age of the person cannot be derived AFAIK. I know that in Italy the tax number is used quite a lot. I could not buy a rechargable smart card for public transport, because I did not have the tax number. And when just for fun at a train ticket machine I tapped that I would like a receipt, it asked me for my tax number. Whether the number is used as an authentication method and could be misused in that context I have no idea.
  - jaclaz 9y ago
    >I know that in Italy the tax number is used quite a lot. I could not buy a rechargable smart card for public transport, because I did not have the tax number. And when just for fun at a train ticket machine I tapped that I would like a receipt, it asked me for my tax number. Whether the number is used as an authentication method and could be misused in that context I have no idea. No, the number is just a number, and as said it is not secret and can be generated (though with not a 100% guarantee of it being valid because of "total" homonimy). It is only an ID number, whilst the card is (can be) a form of online ID (but only on a few specific government sites) and the said fun fact as proof of age on vending machines. In any case it is never a password, so having it public it is not an issue, at the most you could have typed my (or someone else's) Codice Fiscale on the ticket machine, but you couldn't have used it for (if appliable) tax deduction on your name.
    - usr1106 9y ago
      > No, the number is just a number, and as said it is not secret and can be generated (though with not a 100% guarantee of it being valid because of "total" homonimy). True. I had already forgotten that. Created mine a couple of years ago using some unofficial online service. Maybe I still have it on some disk... Of course I cannot be 100% sure that it is correct. I understand I could order mine officially without ever having lived in Italy. Never bothered about that, I don't have that much contact to Italy.

jaclaz 9y ago

>Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, the Codice Fiscale in Italy is the same, assigned at birth (or immigration). The difference is that it is not on the ID card (as it is - say - in Finland or Sweden or Denmark or Spain), but on a separate card. It is a "generic" identifying number with all public administration offices besides tax use, but of course it is always directly or indirectly connected with taxes. As an example if you sign a rent contract for a house (between privates), or if you sign a contract for utilities, or you buy a SIM card you need that number, if you ask for some specific kind of receipt (fattura) you need it, when you buy medicines (that may be partially deducted from taxes) you need it at the chemist/pharmacy. Fun fact: if you want to buy some cigarettes at a vending machine, you need the card to prove that you are 16 or older. . Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperati... Here is the list with documentation about each country: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?locale=en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?... Germany has it alright (and it is assigned at birth) though it is not on a card (ID card or otherwise) and is used only for Tax purposes: http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer/FAQ/01_Allgemeines/allgemeines_FAQ_node.html;jsessionid=54D37D775822E3F5B389EBE397F97BB5.live6832 http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifik... It has been introduced only relatively recently, 2011 I believe, to give you a reference in Italy it was introduced in 1976.

usr1106 9y ago
> Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: Exactly. In Finland (as in the US obviously) knowing someone's ID can be used to cause damage to the person. You can do some business in the name of the person, because it is generally but falsely assumed that knowing the number is an authentication method. In Germany, because the tax number is only used for income taxation. Already for other taxes, like sales tax, property tax etc. another number is used. I am not ware of any obvious way how one could misuse someone else's income tax number. The income tax number is completely obscure, age of the person cannot be derived AFAIK. I know that in Italy the tax number is used quite a lot. I could not buy a rechargable smart card for public transport, because I did not have the tax number. And when just for fun at a train ticket machine I tapped that I would like a receipt, it asked me for my tax number. Whether the number is used as an authentication method and could be misused in that context I have no idea.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >I know that in Italy the tax number is used quite a lot. I could not buy a rechargable smart card for public transport, because I did not have the tax number. And when just for fun at a train ticket machine I tapped that I would like a receipt, it asked me for my tax number. Whether the number is used as an authentication method and could be misused in that context I have no idea. No, the number is just a number, and as said it is not secret and can be generated (though with not a 100% guarantee of it being valid because of "total" homonimy). It is only an ID number, whilst the card is (can be) a form of online ID (but only on a few specific government sites) and the said fun fact as proof of age on vending machines. In any case it is never a password, so having it public it is not an issue, at the most you could have typed my (or someone else's) Codice Fiscale on the ticket machine, but you couldn't have used it for (if appliable) tax deduction on your name.
  - usr1106 9y ago
    > No, the number is just a number, and as said it is not secret and can be generated (though with not a 100% guarantee of it being valid because of "total" homonimy). True. I had already forgotten that. Created mine a couple of years ago using some unofficial online service. Maybe I still have it on some disk... Of course I cannot be 100% sure that it is correct. I understand I could order mine officially without ever having lived in Italy. Never bothered about that, I don't have that much contact to Italy.