8 ms·

Something non-US folks don't always get about the US -- in a lot of ways, the US is more analogous to the EU than it is to any one country of Europe. That is to

Something non-US folks don't always get about the US -- in a lot of ways, the US is more analogous to the EU than it is to any one country of Europe. That is to say, the US Government is the national entity, but quite a lot of power is still held in the states. There is a 200+ year wariness of federal power here. One of the ways this manifests itself is that identity is established and maintained largely by the states. Your driver's license is basically your national ID here, even though there are 50 different kinds of driver's licenses. In the 1930s we had Great Depression, New Deal, etc. and Social Security. Once Social Security Numbers became a thing, they became wildly popular as a stand-in for a national identifier. And now they're crucial, and they get stolen all the time, and we have nothing better to replace them with. National IDs are a nonstarter politically in the US. One side thinks it is undue encroachment on local rights, and the other side thinks requiring ID disenfranchises the poor and undocumented. That's the tl;dr version of course -- reality is more nuanced.

imdsm 9y ago
> in a lot of ways, the US is more analogous to the EU than it is to any one country of Europe Interestingly, this is because the EU was modelled after the USA, though things didn't quite go according to plan so we have the EU instead of the USE. Regardless of political standing, I do recommend https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Deception-European-survive-Referendum/dp/1472939662/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Deception-European-survive-Re... for an in-depth history of the EU.
umanwizard 9y ago
There's no reason we can't have national IDs. I don't have a drivers' license, but I carry my Passport Card around.
- xtreme 9y ago
  The parent just explained why there is not much support from either the people or the politicians for a national ID in the US. Even if you don't agree with him, the assertion that "there is no reason US can't have a national ID card" is clearly false. Of course, an individual can obtain a passport if he wants, but that is only required to travel out of the country and only a small percentage of US citizens do that. P.S. if you don't drive, your state probably offers a state ID card equivalent to the driver license. It is generally cheaper to obtain and replace.
- Haul4ss 9y ago
  There's no technical reason, but there are plenty of political ones. And since our government derives its power from the consent of the governed, if enough people don't want national IDs we won't have national IDs.
Veratyr 9y ago
> National IDs are a nonstarter politically in the US. One side thinks it is undue encroachment on local rights, and the other side thinks requiring ID disenfranchises the poor and undocumented. That's the tl;dr version of course -- reality is more nuanced. As a non-American, this doesn't really make much sense to me. There's already a national ID, the Social Security card. It's just a really really terrible form of national ID.
- VonGuard 9y ago
  Social Security card is made of paper, has nothing but the number and your name, and 99% of people in the US have lost, destroyed, or never carried it to begin with. Stupid paper card even says "Do not laminate" but mine is laminated and thus intact after 40 years. SS#'s were never meant to be personal ID numbers or national ID numbers. This was a big thing when they were introduced. Unfortunately, companies use them ALL the time. There should be a law against companies asking for your SS#. Anyway, nothing about American government or the American people makes sense. We're probably the most irrational, stupidest electorate in the world. I mean, look who we elected president!
  - zanny 9y ago
    Except if the SS number was not meant to identify people, what was it for? It was meant to track people throughout their lives to set the amount they get paid by the program based on what they made / what SS tax they paid. It is terrible at that, it is terrible as a general id, and its just another example of doublethink in American politics - we want national welfare programs that are restricted only to valid citizens, but we don't want to actually know who the citizens are or keep track of them, or have any concrete way to identify them.
    - maxsilver 9y ago
      > Except if the SS number was not meant to identify people, what was it for? It was meant to track people throughout their lives to set the amount they get paid by the program based on what they made / what SS tax they paid. Sure, but there's a huge difference between identifying people's accounts with Social Security / IRS and being a National ID card used for everything everywhere. It's was designed for the first, and intentionally forbidden for use as the latter, despite everyone using it that way anyway. Social Security cards literally said "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" right on them, for 30 years, to try to stop this from happening. It did anyway...
kartan 9y ago
An Example: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards And some arguments are laughable. > What happens when an ID card is stolen? What proof is used to decide who gets a card? Mine has a picture on it. If this argument is true, then why does any country issue passports, drive licenses, etc...? Why do security enforce agencies have identifications? They are not perfect, but they work. > An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens. The "slippery slope" theory is just the straw-man fallacy on disguise. > A national ID would require a governmental database of every person in the U.S. containing continually updated identifying information. It would likely contain many errors, any one of which could render someone unemployable and possibly much worse until they get their ""file"" straightened out. This is the definition of what Equifax is. But it gets worse as people gets into no flight lists because they share the same name than a person of interest. The lack of an ID card just magnifies the problem, it doesn't makes it disappear. (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Same-Name-Mistaken-Identity-John-Neuhart-San-Diego-440835873.html http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Same-Name-Mistaken-Ide...) > How long before office buildings, doctors' offices, gas stations, highway tolls, subways and buses incorporate the ID card into their security or payment systems for greater efficiency? This information is already available for credit card companies. Is that better? And in Europe we have ID cards, and they are not used for any of that things. Except maybe the doctor office, as your life depends on having reliable data and it is part of your health care rights provided by the government. > A national ID card would have the same effect on a massive scale, as Latinos, Asians, Caribbeans and other minorities became subject to ceaseless status and identity checks from police, banks, merchants and others. This says more about USA culture than about id cards. Also, it already happens (e.g. the POTUS pardon).

imdsm 9y ago

> in a lot of ways, the US is more analogous to the EU than it is to any one country of Europe Interestingly, this is because the EU was modelled after the USA, though things didn't quite go according to plan so we have the EU instead of the USE. Regardless of political standing, I do recommend https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Deception-European-survive-Referendum/dp/1472939662/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Deception-European-survive-Re... for an in-depth history of the EU.

umanwizard 9y ago

There's no reason we can't have national IDs. I don't have a drivers' license, but I carry my Passport Card around.

xtreme 9y ago
The parent just explained why there is not much support from either the people or the politicians for a national ID in the US. Even if you don't agree with him, the assertion that "there is no reason US can't have a national ID card" is clearly false. Of course, an individual can obtain a passport if he wants, but that is only required to travel out of the country and only a small percentage of US citizens do that. P.S. if you don't drive, your state probably offers a state ID card equivalent to the driver license. It is generally cheaper to obtain and replace.
Haul4ss 9y ago
There's no technical reason, but there are plenty of political ones. And since our government derives its power from the consent of the governed, if enough people don't want national IDs we won't have national IDs.

Veratyr 9y ago

> National IDs are a nonstarter politically in the US. One side thinks it is undue encroachment on local rights, and the other side thinks requiring ID disenfranchises the poor and undocumented. That's the tl;dr version of course -- reality is more nuanced. As a non-American, this doesn't really make much sense to me. There's already a national ID, the Social Security card. It's just a really really terrible form of national ID.

VonGuard 9y ago
Social Security card is made of paper, has nothing but the number and your name, and 99% of people in the US have lost, destroyed, or never carried it to begin with. Stupid paper card even says "Do not laminate" but mine is laminated and thus intact after 40 years. SS#'s were never meant to be personal ID numbers or national ID numbers. This was a big thing when they were introduced. Unfortunately, companies use them ALL the time. There should be a law against companies asking for your SS#. Anyway, nothing about American government or the American people makes sense. We're probably the most irrational, stupidest electorate in the world. I mean, look who we elected president!
- zanny 9y ago
  Except if the SS number was not meant to identify people, what was it for? It was meant to track people throughout their lives to set the amount they get paid by the program based on what they made / what SS tax they paid. It is terrible at that, it is terrible as a general id, and its just another example of doublethink in American politics - we want national welfare programs that are restricted only to valid citizens, but we don't want to actually know who the citizens are or keep track of them, or have any concrete way to identify them.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > Except if the SS number was not meant to identify people, what was it for? It was meant to track people throughout their lives to set the amount they get paid by the program based on what they made / what SS tax they paid. Sure, but there's a huge difference between identifying people's accounts with Social Security / IRS and being a National ID card used for everything everywhere. It's was designed for the first, and intentionally forbidden for use as the latter, despite everyone using it that way anyway. Social Security cards literally said "NOT FOR IDENTIFICATION" right on them, for 30 years, to try to stop this from happening. It did anyway...

kartan 9y ago

An Example: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards And some arguments are laughable. > What happens when an ID card is stolen? What proof is used to decide who gets a card? Mine has a picture on it. If this argument is true, then why does any country issue passports, drive licenses, etc...? Why do security enforce agencies have identifications? They are not perfect, but they work. > An ID card system will lead to a slippery slope of surveillance and monitoring of citizens. The "slippery slope" theory is just the straw-man fallacy on disguise. > A national ID would require a governmental database of every person in the U.S. containing continually updated identifying information. It would likely contain many errors, any one of which could render someone unemployable and possibly much worse until they get their ""file"" straightened out. This is the definition of what Equifax is. But it gets worse as people gets into no flight lists because they share the same name than a person of interest. The lack of an ID card just magnifies the problem, it doesn't makes it disappear. (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Same-Name-Mistaken-Identity-John-Neuhart-San-Diego-440835873.html http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Same-Name-Mistaken-Ide...) > How long before office buildings, doctors' offices, gas stations, highway tolls, subways and buses incorporate the ID card into their security or payment systems for greater efficiency? This information is already available for credit card companies. Is that better? And in Europe we have ID cards, and they are not used for any of that things. Except maybe the doctor office, as your life depends on having reliable data and it is part of your health care rights provided by the government. > A national ID card would have the same effect on a massive scale, as Latinos, Asians, Caribbeans and other minorities became subject to ceaseless status and identity checks from police, banks, merchants and others. This says more about USA culture than about id cards. Also, it already happens (e.g. the POTUS pardon).