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I believe that all EU has a similar approach, it is just the US that misuse the SSN. The way it is done in Italy (it is called "Codice Fiscale") it is composed

by jaclaz 9y ago

I believe that all EU has a similar approach, it is just the US that misuse the SSN. The way it is done in Italy (it is called "Codice Fiscale") it is composed through a public algorithm from name, surname, place and date of birth with a final "control" character (derived by the preceding characters) so - with the exception of the very few cases of total homonimy - it can be recreated "on the spot". Nowadays it is however printed on an electronic card, with both a magnetic stripe and a chip and it is the actual card (together with an ID document[1]) that "authenticates" your identity (in person) while on some government sites you can use the card (with a smart card reader) to authenticate. [1] actually the main thing is the ID document, passport, ID card or - in some cases - driving license, with that you can declare your Codice Fiscale even if you don't have the actual card with you.

slau 9y ago
Thanks for the great content and information. Just a minor nitpick: your identity can't be authenticated. You, as an individual, can be identified, but the only thing that can be authenticated is the piece of plastic (ensuring it is not counterfeit). I wrote down an analogy for the different lingo some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13635820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13635820
- jaclaz 9y ago
  Yep, sure, you are correct, that's why I put it in double quotes, more accurately the identity can be "verified" or "vaidated" by the ID card (of course authentic) or even more strictly by comparing the photo (and other description data) on the ID card to the looks of the bearer. I just checked and also en.wikipedia has a good description of the algorithm used, JFYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card
- bonzini 9y ago
  That's why the piece of plastic is only used together with an ID card, driver's license or passport---the plastic has a smartcard but no photo, so the two complement each other. Alternatively the smartcard can be used as a second factor together with a password but, as you correctly pointed out, it is not enough alone.
usr1106 9y ago
> I believe that all EU has a similar approach Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). They can be seen as a primary key in many contexts, not only when dealing with social security or the public sector. I guess there could be more such countries. In Finland the official recommendation these days is that you should be very cautious with your social security number, because it allows identity theft. But that is a bit ridiculous recommendation, because there are many cases where you have to give your social security number. Persons appearing to be 29 our younger need to show an ID when buying alcohol. So they show their social security number to every supermarket cashier. It would be illegal for the cashier to write them down and collect them, but easy to do for someone who trains a bit to memorize a birthdate plus 4 digits for a minute or 2. Nearly impossible to track. In Germany on the other side having such universal primary key (a personal identifier) is deemed unconstitutional. Those who have been employed have a social security number, but it's not used for any other purpose than pensions. Probably most health insurances assign a number to the insured person, but it is meaningless outside of that insurer. A life-long tax number was only introduced a couple of years ago. It was quite much criticized by privacy activists that it is too close to a forbidden person identifier. Person identifiers existed in GDR (former East), but their usage was forbidden by law after re-unification (except in some cases where facts of the past need to be tracked).
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, the Codice Fiscale in Italy is the same, assigned at birth (or immigration). The difference is that it is not on the ID card (as it is - say - in Finland or Sweden or Denmark or Spain), but on a separate card. It is a "generic" identifying number with all public administration offices besides tax use, but of course it is always directly or indirectly connected with taxes. As an example if you sign a rent contract for a house (between privates), or if you sign a contract for utilities, or you buy a SIM card you need that number, if you ask for some specific kind of receipt (fattura) you need it, when you buy medicines (that may be partially deducted from taxes) you need it at the chemist/pharmacy. Fun fact: if you want to buy some cigarettes at a vending machine, you need the card to prove that you are 16 or older. . Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperati... Here is the list with documentation about each country: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?locale=en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?... Germany has it alright (and it is assigned at birth) though it is not on a card (ID card or otherwise) and is used only for Tax purposes: http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer/FAQ/01_Allgemeines/allgemeines_FAQ_node.html;jsessionid=54D37D775822E3F5B389EBE397F97BB5.live6832 http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifik... It has been introduced only relatively recently, 2011 I believe, to give you a reference in Italy it was introduced in 1976.

by jaclaz 9y ago

slau 9y ago

Thanks for the great content and information. Just a minor nitpick: your identity can't be authenticated. You, as an individual, can be identified, but the only thing that can be authenticated is the piece of plastic (ensuring it is not counterfeit). I wrote down an analogy for the different lingo some months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13635820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13635820

jaclaz 9y ago
Yep, sure, you are correct, that's why I put it in double quotes, more accurately the identity can be "verified" or "vaidated" by the ID card (of course authentic) or even more strictly by comparing the photo (and other description data) on the ID card to the looks of the bearer. I just checked and also en.wikipedia has a good description of the algorithm used, JFYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card
bonzini 9y ago
That's why the piece of plastic is only used together with an ID card, driver's license or passport---the plastic has a smartcard but no photo, so the two complement each other. Alternatively the smartcard can be used as a second factor together with a password but, as you correctly pointed out, it is not enough alone.

usr1106 9y ago

> I believe that all EU has a similar approach Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). They can be seen as a primary key in many contexts, not only when dealing with social security or the public sector. I guess there could be more such countries. In Finland the official recommendation these days is that you should be very cautious with your social security number, because it allows identity theft. But that is a bit ridiculous recommendation, because there are many cases where you have to give your social security number. Persons appearing to be 29 our younger need to show an ID when buying alcohol. So they show their social security number to every supermarket cashier. It would be illegal for the cashier to write them down and collect them, but easy to do for someone who trains a bit to memorize a birthdate plus 4 digits for a minute or 2. Nearly impossible to track. In Germany on the other side having such universal primary key (a personal identifier) is deemed unconstitutional. Those who have been employed have a social security number, but it's not used for any other purpose than pensions. Probably most health insurances assign a number to the insured person, but it is meaningless outside of that insurer. A life-long tax number was only introduced a couple of years ago. It was quite much criticized by privacy activists that it is too close to a forbidden person identifier. Person identifiers existed in GDR (former East), but their usage was forbidden by law after re-unification (except in some cases where facts of the past need to be tracked).

jaclaz 9y ago
>Not at all. At least Finland and Sweden do have a social security number assigned at birth (or immigration). Maybe we are misunderstanding each other, the Codice Fiscale in Italy is the same, assigned at birth (or immigration). The difference is that it is not on the ID card (as it is - say - in Finland or Sweden or Denmark or Spain), but on a separate card. It is a "generic" identifying number with all public administration offices besides tax use, but of course it is always directly or indirectly connected with taxes. As an example if you sign a rent contract for a house (between privates), or if you sign a contract for utilities, or you buy a SIM card you need that number, if you ask for some specific kind of receipt (fattura) you need it, when you buy medicines (that may be partially deducted from taxes) you need it at the chemist/pharmacy. Fun fact: if you want to buy some cigarettes at a vending machine, you need the card to prove that you are 16 or older. . Of course each country will have its own uses (or non uses) for the thing, that is generically (EU) called TIN: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperation-control/administrative-cooperation/tax-identification-numbers-tin_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/tax-cooperati... Here is the list with documentation about each country: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?locale=en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/tin/tinByCountry.html?... Germany has it alright (and it is assigned at birth) though it is not on a card (ID card or otherwise) and is used only for Tax purposes: http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifikationsnummer/FAQ/01_Allgemeines/allgemeines_FAQ_node.html;jsessionid=54D37D775822E3F5B389EBE397F97BB5.live6832 http://www.bzst.de/DE/Steuern_National/Steuerliche_Identifik... It has been introduced only relatively recently, 2011 I believe, to give you a reference in Italy it was introduced in 1976.