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Looks like Reason has the same PATENTS license as React, for those wondering: https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt https://github.com/fac

Looks like Reason has the same PATENTS license as React, for those wondering: https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
0x0 9y ago
ah yes the file that caused apache to kick react out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14779881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14779881
jeswin 9y ago
This is one of the better patent grants out there. If a company intends to use patents as a weapon, then Reason is not for them. Of course, if FB sues you first and you counter sue, the grant does not terminate. Seems fair. I wish they go one step further and say, if you sue or threaten to sue anyone (not just FB) over patents, then the grant terminates automatically.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  I wish they go one step further and say, if you sue or threaten to sue anyone (not just FB) over patents, then the grant terminates automatically. It's better not to use software to force people to change their behavior. It's open source software. That means something. Or used to, at least. We've come from the ideals of the GPL down to defensive/active countermeasures of corporation vs corporation conflict.
  - blackoil 9y ago
    GPL forces people to change behaviour, if they do not wish to open source their software, or use a different license.
    - sillysaurus3 9y ago
      In order to open the software to more people. The license here is a defensive move solely to limit damage. Which is fine, I get it. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just lamenting that Software Matters Now. At this point it's less about having an open culture of sharing and more "We own this."
      - Sacho 9y ago
        The grant parent describes is very similar to GPL, with an end-goal of eliminating patents.
    - AsyncAwait 9y ago
      > GPL forces people to change behaviour, if they do not wish to open source their software GPL forces people to respect the wishes of whatever software they depend on, they're free to not use it.
- andreyf 9y ago
  By "use patents as a weapon" you mean "ever plan to enforce patents against Facebook"? That's quite a stretch. Still, folks more knowledgeable than me on this topic say it's not a big deal: https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revokable-patent-license-why-its-a-paper-25c40c50b562 https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revok...
  - namelost 9y ago
    Many people around these parts reject software patents as immoral, because software is just applied mathematics and mathematics should not be patentable. So yes, any use of a software patent offensively is malicious.
    - setzer22 9y ago
      Software can ve very far from mathematics. Your argument applies to algorithms, but personally I don't think that React falls under the category of algorithms (it may use algorithms, though).
- henvic 9y ago
  I love this patent grant Facebook uses! If you are a criminal and want to use software patents to attack innocents, I couldn't care less if Facebook throws some lawyers to hunt you.
  - yawaramin 9y ago
    The thing is, this patent grant wording seems to say that if you are using React, and Facebook infringes on your patents (software or otherwise), and you defend your patents by suing Facebook, you lose the right to use React. So I think it's good to be aware of that.
    - Lazare 9y ago
      > you defend your patents by suing Facebook, you lose the right to use React. No you don't. You lose the right to use any patents Facebook might (or much more likely, doesn't) have on React.
      - AsyncAwait 9y ago
        Which is effectively the same, since if you're now violating an additional patent by continuing to use React, you just gave Facebook additional munition to potentially use against you.
        Lazare 9y ago
        > since if you're now violating an additional patent by continuing to use React What patent? Patents are a matter of public record; tell me what patent you think I'd be violating.
        AsyncAwait 9y ago
        Right now, none, but I was talking about the potential of the thing, Facebook might apply for a React-related patent in the future and if you have an entirely React-based project, that say your company depends on, it's going to be a problem.
andrewfong 9y ago
It's doubtful Facebook actually has any relevant patents to license (or revoke a license for) though. OCaml and JS themselves act as prior art for any conceivable thing you would patent for Reason. Remember that copyright and patent law are separate things. If there are no actual patents, then Facebook's BSD + Patents grant just becomes a normal BSD license.
- sandGorgon 9y ago
  Well they could in the ocaml to js translator. IMHO, Typescript exists and is of similar quality, far higher community mindshare, and moving from TS ->ES6 is much more easier (in an emergency). If you write in Reason, the ultimate risk is if you think you will ever be acquired by Google, Microsoft, etc
  - yen223 9y ago
    I'm fairly sure that Bucklescript - the ocaml->js transpiler - is a Bloomberg project. I also find it interesting that Microsoft is still maintaining React-related projects, despite the license issues.
    - chenglou 9y ago
      Btw Bloomberg kindly donated the BuckleScript project. It's now under its own independent organization on Github.
  - chrisco255 9y ago
    Oh please, Microsoft uses React in production. Skype app is built on React Native. The business value of a startup has little to do with the tech stack, by the way.
    - sandGorgon 9y ago
      no - you didnt understand what I meant. if you are going to get acquired by a company that has a potential patent dispute (of any kind), then this license is dangerous. Now, people will still use React - because its javascript and at the end of the day, you can rewrite your web stack faster. Imagine if you have a React Native app already distributed, a Caffe2 ai pipeline in production... or if your logic is in Bucklescript. Much harder to move away if your acquiring company is in a dispute.
k__ 9y ago
Does this even work? I mean Reason seems to be part of BuckleScript which doesn't belong to FB
- yawaramin 9y ago
  Reason and BuckleScript are distributed together, but they are not the same project, and they have different licenses. If you use BuckleScript, you could simply choose to not use Reason.
jrs95 9y ago
I hope Facebook stops using this soon... So that we can stop having the same conversation about it every time anything happens regarding any of their open source projects.

Looks like Reason has the same PATENTS license as React, for those wondering: https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt https://github.com/facebook/reason/blob/master/PATENTS.txt

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

0x0 9y ago

ah yes the file that caused apache to kick react out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14779881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14779881

jeswin 9y ago

This is one of the better patent grants out there. If a company intends to use patents as a weapon, then Reason is not for them. Of course, if FB sues you first and you counter sue, the grant does not terminate. Seems fair. I wish they go one step further and say, if you sue or threaten to sue anyone (not just FB) over patents, then the grant terminates automatically.

sillysaurus3 9y ago
I wish they go one step further and say, if you sue or threaten to sue anyone (not just FB) over patents, then the grant terminates automatically. It's better not to use software to force people to change their behavior. It's open source software. That means something. Or used to, at least. We've come from the ideals of the GPL down to defensive/active countermeasures of corporation vs corporation conflict.
- blackoil 9y ago
  GPL forces people to change behaviour, if they do not wish to open source their software, or use a different license.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    In order to open the software to more people. The license here is a defensive move solely to limit damage. Which is fine, I get it. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm just lamenting that Software Matters Now. At this point it's less about having an open culture of sharing and more "We own this."
    - Sacho 9y ago
      The grant parent describes is very similar to GPL, with an end-goal of eliminating patents.
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    > GPL forces people to change behaviour, if they do not wish to open source their software GPL forces people to respect the wishes of whatever software they depend on, they're free to not use it.
andreyf 9y ago
By "use patents as a weapon" you mean "ever plan to enforce patents against Facebook"? That's quite a stretch. Still, folks more knowledgeable than me on this topic say it's not a big deal: https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revokable-patent-license-why-its-a-paper-25c40c50b562 https://medium.com/@dwalsh.sdlr/react-facebook-and-the-revok...
- namelost 9y ago
  Many people around these parts reject software patents as immoral, because software is just applied mathematics and mathematics should not be patentable. So yes, any use of a software patent offensively is malicious.
  - setzer22 9y ago
    Software can ve very far from mathematics. Your argument applies to algorithms, but personally I don't think that React falls under the category of algorithms (it may use algorithms, though).
henvic 9y ago
I love this patent grant Facebook uses! If you are a criminal and want to use software patents to attack innocents, I couldn't care less if Facebook throws some lawyers to hunt you.
- yawaramin 9y ago
  The thing is, this patent grant wording seems to say that if you are using React, and Facebook infringes on your patents (software or otherwise), and you defend your patents by suing Facebook, you lose the right to use React. So I think it's good to be aware of that.
  - Lazare 9y ago
    > you defend your patents by suing Facebook, you lose the right to use React. No you don't. You lose the right to use any patents Facebook might (or much more likely, doesn't) have on React.
    - AsyncAwait 9y ago
      Which is effectively the same, since if you're now violating an additional patent by continuing to use React, you just gave Facebook additional munition to potentially use against you.
      - Lazare 9y ago
        > since if you're now violating an additional patent by continuing to use React What patent? Patents are a matter of public record; tell me what patent you think I'd be violating.
        AsyncAwait 9y ago
        Right now, none, but I was talking about the potential of the thing, Facebook might apply for a React-related patent in the future and if you have an entirely React-based project, that say your company depends on, it's going to be a problem.

andrewfong 9y ago

It's doubtful Facebook actually has any relevant patents to license (or revoke a license for) though. OCaml and JS themselves act as prior art for any conceivable thing you would patent for Reason. Remember that copyright and patent law are separate things. If there are no actual patents, then Facebook's BSD + Patents grant just becomes a normal BSD license.

sandGorgon 9y ago
Well they could in the ocaml to js translator. IMHO, Typescript exists and is of similar quality, far higher community mindshare, and moving from TS ->ES6 is much more easier (in an emergency). If you write in Reason, the ultimate risk is if you think you will ever be acquired by Google, Microsoft, etc
- yen223 9y ago
  I'm fairly sure that Bucklescript - the ocaml->js transpiler - is a Bloomberg project. I also find it interesting that Microsoft is still maintaining React-related projects, despite the license issues.
  - chenglou 9y ago
    Btw Bloomberg kindly donated the BuckleScript project. It's now under its own independent organization on Github.
- chrisco255 9y ago
  Oh please, Microsoft uses React in production. Skype app is built on React Native. The business value of a startup has little to do with the tech stack, by the way.
  - sandGorgon 9y ago
    no - you didnt understand what I meant. if you are going to get acquired by a company that has a potential patent dispute (of any kind), then this license is dangerous. Now, people will still use React - because its javascript and at the end of the day, you can rewrite your web stack faster. Imagine if you have a React Native app already distributed, a Caffe2 ai pipeline in production... or if your logic is in Bucklescript. Much harder to move away if your acquiring company is in a dispute.

k__ 9y ago

Does this even work? I mean Reason seems to be part of BuckleScript which doesn't belong to FB

yawaramin 9y ago
Reason and BuckleScript are distributed together, but they are not the same project, and they have different licenses. If you use BuckleScript, you could simply choose to not use Reason.

jrs95 9y ago

I hope Facebook stops using this soon... So that we can stop having the same conversation about it every time anything happens regarding any of their open source projects.