6 ms·

> Mean words cannot hurt a bank. Threats cannot hurt a bank. Paper trails, though, are terrifying to regulated institutions. Your bank’s customer support repres

> Mean words cannot hurt a bank. Threats cannot hurt a bank. Paper trails, though, are terrifying to regulated institutions. Your bank’s customer support representatives are taught to evaluate whether someone looks like they’re competent and collecting a paper trail. If they are, the CS rep is supposed to stop touching the case immediately and instead escalate them to a supervisor or to the legal department. This is why I record every single one of my phone calls. I've recorded lies over the phone (without knowing they were lying at the time) and then played them back to another customer service rep to prove how I was deceived. I was immediately escalated as the author says and could feel how the evidence gave me power in the situation. Edit: I'm not suggesting anyone break the law. If you're going to record phone calls, know your laws and get consent if necessary. This document which was last updated 3/10/2017 may be of help https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/LAWS-ON-R...

patio11 9y ago
Important not-a-lawyer advice: recording phone calls without the other party's consent is illegal in wide swathes of the U.S., but keeping copies of letters is legal everywhere.
- kejaed 9y ago
  Are you automatically covered if they give the standard boilerplate that they are recording the call?
  - ptero 9y ago
    IANAL either, but I think either of informing the party upfront or soft beeps in the background are acceptable.
    - e40 9y ago
      I've been informed by the other side many times that the call was recorded, and never once heard soft beeps. I think the announcement must be enough. EDIT: IANAL
      - ptero 9y ago
        Yes. I believe either is sufficient, not that both are required
  - snowpanda 9y ago
    That's a great question, this might be of interest to you: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/5614/if-other-party-notified-me-that-phone-conversation-is-being-recorded-do-i-need https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/5614/if-other-party-... The top answer states: >Once AT&T, or anyone else for that matter, states that the communication is being recorded, it is no longer considered a confidential communication requiring the consent of all parties in order for any party to record it.
- milkytron 9y ago
  This is correct, if anyone is considering this then definitely look into your state laws before proceeding.
- AmIFirstToThink 9y ago
  Question: When the party states that "this call may be recorded for quality or training purposes", does that give you reciprocal permission to record the call or do you have to explicitly ask for it? Any lawyers with opinion on this?
  - sly010 9y ago
    Perhaps answering every notice of recording with "me too" is enough?
    - thecrazyone 9y ago
      Wow! this is a good one. I would love to hear a lawyer's take on this to see if this is notice enough. Seems like it though :)
  - carbocation 9y ago
    If I tell someone "my nose may be touched" then I'm allowing them to touch my nose. If I tell someone "this call may be recorded", then surely I'm giving them permission to record the call. Their ability to detect my lies seems to be a reasonable "quality" purpose.
    - chias 9y ago
      You would be intentionally conflating two different definitions of the homograph "may" (i.e. permission "you are allowed to X" versus possibility "X might happen"). You could argue that "any reasonable person" would have interpreted the "may" in that statement as giving you permission to record the call for training purposes (as opposed to letting you know that your call might be recorded for training purposes), but I wouldn't want to be in you shoes when you try. Just tell them that you're recording the call too, and sidestep the issue entirely.
  - gsnedders 9y ago
    This again varies between jurisdictions, as far as I'm aware.
  - 9y ago
- didibus 9y ago
  I wonder if this law still makes sense. I feel it could be altered to say that recording someone without them even knowing you are listening should be illegal, but I don't see why it should be illegal to record a consenting conversation between two people. Btw, does it apply to video recording as well?
  - mark212 9y ago
    Generally the laws on video recording are based on where the camera operator is standing while filming. If you have a lawful right to be where you are, it's probably ok to make a video. But take a look at the facts in Shulman v. Group W Production, Inc. (1998) 18 Cal. 4th 200, where the camera crew was lawfully present but intruded on a private encounter. Very much depends on context, at least in California.
- pwg 9y ago
  Yes, check your states laws. Some states are two-party consent, but a good number are one-party consent states. And in a one-party consent state you recording yourself is legal without the other parties knowledge because you gave your consent to make the recording of yourself.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  As a maverick not a lawyer, it's worth noting that what this means in practice is that evidence of a crime obtained by illegally recording a telephone conversation may not be admissible in court. I say may not be because a judge could decide to allow the evidence if the alleged crime is sufficiently serious. It's extraordinarily unlikely a criminal or civil case will be brought against you because you revealed to a company that you recorded a support call to them, especially if the content of those calls reveals impropriety on their behalf. What probably would be a problem is if you recorded a telephone conversation with the intent to, or actually causing, harm. At least, that's my lay understanding of how things might go.
  - didibus 9y ago
    How do you record the consent itself? Or is it going to be a case of he said/she said? I'd assume you'd need proof that you had asked for consent prior.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      > How do you record the consent itself? I suppose using a call recording device for a fixed line telephone, or an app for a smartphone. > I'd assume you'd need proof that you had asked for consent prior. My point is: even if you neglect to ask for consent, no company is going to sic their lawyers on you if you play back to them a call recording that proves they lied and therefore failed to meet their contractual obligations. Edit: Oh, sorry, I see what you mean now about recording consent. You start by recording the call by default, if the other party requests the call not be recorded you cease recording. It would probably be okay to retain that portion of the recording.
    - ballenf 9y ago
      The pedantic way (and maybe required under some theoretic draconian regulatory environment): - no active recording - Mr. Wants-to-record: "May I record this phone call?" Ms. Recordee: "Ok" - start recording - Mr. Wants-to-record: "I am now recording based on the permission you just gave prior to starting recording. Are we in agreement?" Ms. Recordee: "Yep" ---- FWIW, I've had conversations pretty close to that when doing mortgage applications over the phone.
- nugator 9y ago
  It is legal in, for example, Sweden: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws
- qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
  And here I am, fascinated, with all the technology available today, paper and pen is the gold standard.
- Natsu 9y ago
  Due to getting a new cell phone number that apparently once belonged to a deadbeat I know nothing about, I got a large number of debt collector calls. I wish I had a good way to get their address and record who is calling. The only problem is that they all ask for <name>, give me no information about themselves, and hang up right away. I blocked a lot of them, but there's no good way to make that go away.
  - mark212 9y ago
    The federal Telephone Consumer Protection Act (47 USC 227) says that each of these calls is worth $500 minimum in statutory damages -- and may be trebled to $1500 per call if shown to be willful. Assuming you live in the US, this is a great case and you should keep track of the calls.
    - Girlang 9y ago
      Wrong! The law only protects actual deadbeats who continue to get calls after they request that they stop.
    - Natsu 9y ago
      Problem is that they never identify themselves, they just say "we're looking for [xyz]" and hang up when I say I'm not them. I can't keep them on the call and the caller ID is faked to be some random local number.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
Recording phone calls without the other party's consent is super illegal, as in criminally illegal, in all-party consent states [1]. Needless to say, one gives up leverage when one commits a crime. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws
- JonDav 9y ago
  And that is why you state you are recording the call.
- nelzya 9y ago
  Is it legal if another side is recording (as they usually do)?
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  > super illegal Trafficking large quantities of drugs, aggravated assault, serious sexual assault, murder. These are super illegal. No one is going to prison for recording a support call that reveals impropriety on behalf of the company providing support. Many people here seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency side channel of society and power. The steps that would necessarily have to occur in order for a case to be brought against you because you illegally recorded a support call that revealed impropriety of the other party are fairly preposterous. Anyway, all of this can be avoided by simply stating something along the lines of "I am recording this call for my records. Please advise me now, or at any stage, if you wish the recording to cease." The illegality of acts like those I mentioned above can't obviated by stating your intention to commit them and offering an opportunity for the other party to decline to participate. In some jurisdictions it is a form of assault to seriously state your intention to harm another.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > The steps that would necessarily have to occur in order for a case to be brought against you because you illegally recorded a support call that revealed impropriety of the other party are fairly preposterous It's as simple as "we will settle your qualms against our business in exchange for us not pursuing your wilful violation of criminal law in court". If you say no, a cheap state court filing would be routine for a business but hell for an individual. TL; DR If you want to record a call, get permission. Source: I helped a friend who had a call illegally recorded Cc our local AG on a letter protesting the matter. The AG requested information from the offender; they settled with damages for everyone involved's time and expenses. Running your life assuming nobody will hold you accountable works until it fails. When it fails you've handed the other party a ton of leverage.
arkadiyt 9y ago
How do you do this from a technical perspective? I've tried to look for solutions to do this in the past but never found any good options.
- pwg 9y ago
  From the F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/) store: Call Recorder: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.axet.callrecorder/ https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.axet.callrecorder/

patio11 9y ago

Important not-a-lawyer advice: recording phone calls without the other party's consent is illegal in wide swathes of the U.S., but keeping copies of letters is legal everywhere.

kejaed 9y ago
Are you automatically covered if they give the standard boilerplate that they are recording the call?
- ptero 9y ago
  IANAL either, but I think either of informing the party upfront or soft beeps in the background are acceptable.
  - e40 9y ago
    I've been informed by the other side many times that the call was recorded, and never once heard soft beeps. I think the announcement must be enough. EDIT: IANAL
    - ptero 9y ago
      Yes. I believe either is sufficient, not that both are required
- snowpanda 9y ago
  That's a great question, this might be of interest to you: https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/5614/if-other-party-notified-me-that-phone-conversation-is-being-recorded-do-i-need https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/5614/if-other-party-... The top answer states: >Once AT&T, or anyone else for that matter, states that the communication is being recorded, it is no longer considered a confidential communication requiring the consent of all parties in order for any party to record it.
milkytron 9y ago
This is correct, if anyone is considering this then definitely look into your state laws before proceeding.
AmIFirstToThink 9y ago
Question: When the party states that "this call may be recorded for quality or training purposes", does that give you reciprocal permission to record the call or do you have to explicitly ask for it? Any lawyers with opinion on this?
- sly010 9y ago
  Perhaps answering every notice of recording with "me too" is enough?
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    Wow! this is a good one. I would love to hear a lawyer's take on this to see if this is notice enough. Seems like it though :)
- carbocation 9y ago
  If I tell someone "my nose may be touched" then I'm allowing them to touch my nose. If I tell someone "this call may be recorded", then surely I'm giving them permission to record the call. Their ability to detect my lies seems to be a reasonable "quality" purpose.
  - chias 9y ago
    You would be intentionally conflating two different definitions of the homograph "may" (i.e. permission "you are allowed to X" versus possibility "X might happen"). You could argue that "any reasonable person" would have interpreted the "may" in that statement as giving you permission to record the call for training purposes (as opposed to letting you know that your call might be recorded for training purposes), but I wouldn't want to be in you shoes when you try. Just tell them that you're recording the call too, and sidestep the issue entirely.
- gsnedders 9y ago
  This again varies between jurisdictions, as far as I'm aware.
- 9y ago
didibus 9y ago
I wonder if this law still makes sense. I feel it could be altered to say that recording someone without them even knowing you are listening should be illegal, but I don't see why it should be illegal to record a consenting conversation between two people. Btw, does it apply to video recording as well?
- mark212 9y ago
  Generally the laws on video recording are based on where the camera operator is standing while filming. If you have a lawful right to be where you are, it's probably ok to make a video. But take a look at the facts in Shulman v. Group W Production, Inc. (1998) 18 Cal. 4th 200, where the camera crew was lawfully present but intruded on a private encounter. Very much depends on context, at least in California.
pwg 9y ago
Yes, check your states laws. Some states are two-party consent, but a good number are one-party consent states. And in a one-party consent state you recording yourself is legal without the other parties knowledge because you gave your consent to make the recording of yourself.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
As a maverick not a lawyer, it's worth noting that what this means in practice is that evidence of a crime obtained by illegally recording a telephone conversation may not be admissible in court. I say may not be because a judge could decide to allow the evidence if the alleged crime is sufficiently serious. It's extraordinarily unlikely a criminal or civil case will be brought against you because you revealed to a company that you recorded a support call to them, especially if the content of those calls reveals impropriety on their behalf. What probably would be a problem is if you recorded a telephone conversation with the intent to, or actually causing, harm. At least, that's my lay understanding of how things might go.
- didibus 9y ago
  How do you record the consent itself? Or is it going to be a case of he said/she said? I'd assume you'd need proof that you had asked for consent prior.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    > How do you record the consent itself? I suppose using a call recording device for a fixed line telephone, or an app for a smartphone. > I'd assume you'd need proof that you had asked for consent prior. My point is: even if you neglect to ask for consent, no company is going to sic their lawyers on you if you play back to them a call recording that proves they lied and therefore failed to meet their contractual obligations. Edit: Oh, sorry, I see what you mean now about recording consent. You start by recording the call by default, if the other party requests the call not be recorded you cease recording. It would probably be okay to retain that portion of the recording.
  - ballenf 9y ago
    The pedantic way (and maybe required under some theoretic draconian regulatory environment): - no active recording - Mr. Wants-to-record: "May I record this phone call?" Ms. Recordee: "Ok" - start recording - Mr. Wants-to-record: "I am now recording based on the permission you just gave prior to starting recording. Are we in agreement?" Ms. Recordee: "Yep" ---- FWIW, I've had conversations pretty close to that when doing mortgage applications over the phone.
nugator 9y ago
It is legal in, for example, Sweden: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws
qrbLPHiKpiux 9y ago
And here I am, fascinated, with all the technology available today, paper and pen is the gold standard.
Natsu 9y ago
Due to getting a new cell phone number that apparently once belonged to a deadbeat I know nothing about, I got a large number of debt collector calls. I wish I had a good way to get their address and record who is calling. The only problem is that they all ask for <name>, give me no information about themselves, and hang up right away. I blocked a lot of them, but there's no good way to make that go away.
- mark212 9y ago
  The federal Telephone Consumer Protection Act (47 USC 227) says that each of these calls is worth $500 minimum in statutory damages -- and may be trebled to $1500 per call if shown to be willful. Assuming you live in the US, this is a great case and you should keep track of the calls.
  - Girlang 9y ago
    Wrong! The law only protects actual deadbeats who continue to get calls after they request that they stop.
  - Natsu 9y ago
    Problem is that they never identify themselves, they just say "we're looking for [xyz]" and hang up when I say I'm not them. I can't keep them on the call and the caller ID is faked to be some random local number.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

Recording phone calls without the other party's consent is super illegal, as in criminally illegal, in all-party consent states [1]. Needless to say, one gives up leverage when one commits a crime. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_recording_laws

JonDav 9y ago
And that is why you state you are recording the call.
nelzya 9y ago
Is it legal if another side is recording (as they usually do)?
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
> super illegal Trafficking large quantities of drugs, aggravated assault, serious sexual assault, murder. These are super illegal. No one is going to prison for recording a support call that reveals impropriety on behalf of the company providing support. Many people here seem obsessed with laws, as if they possess value and worth in and of themselves, when really they are a very high latency side channel of society and power. The steps that would necessarily have to occur in order for a case to be brought against you because you illegally recorded a support call that revealed impropriety of the other party are fairly preposterous. Anyway, all of this can be avoided by simply stating something along the lines of "I am recording this call for my records. Please advise me now, or at any stage, if you wish the recording to cease." The illegality of acts like those I mentioned above can't obviated by stating your intention to commit them and offering an opportunity for the other party to decline to participate. In some jurisdictions it is a form of assault to seriously state your intention to harm another.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > The steps that would necessarily have to occur in order for a case to be brought against you because you illegally recorded a support call that revealed impropriety of the other party are fairly preposterous It's as simple as "we will settle your qualms against our business in exchange for us not pursuing your wilful violation of criminal law in court". If you say no, a cheap state court filing would be routine for a business but hell for an individual. TL; DR If you want to record a call, get permission. Source: I helped a friend who had a call illegally recorded Cc our local AG on a letter protesting the matter. The AG requested information from the offender; they settled with damages for everyone involved's time and expenses. Running your life assuming nobody will hold you accountable works until it fails. When it fails you've handed the other party a ton of leverage.

arkadiyt 9y ago

How do you do this from a technical perspective? I've tried to look for solutions to do this in the past but never found any good options.

pwg 9y ago
From the F-Droid (https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/) store: Call Recorder: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.axet.callrecorder/ https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.axet.callrecorder/