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Meaningful whitespace is horrid. I speak from 3.5 years of working on s project that exclusively used yaml as configuration. Yaml is horrid. Toml is way better

Meaningful whitespace is horrid. I speak from 3.5 years of working on s project that exclusively used yaml as configuration. Yaml is horrid. Toml is way better. Yes, multilayered objects in toml are ugly. Don't make your users created multilayered objects for their configuration. That's just a bad UX regardless of the language.

guitarbill 9y ago
> Meaningful whitespace is horrid Millions of Python programmers might disagree, not to mention that most programmers using languages with meaningless whitespace (as far as the computer is concerned) still put whitespace in there, because humans. And it isn't like INI is a great experience, either. Flat configs suck in their own ways.
- krapp 9y ago
  It's weird that a language with the mantra "explicit is better than implicit" has, as a core feature, braces implied by the negative space of the left-hand margin of a text editor. >And it isn't like INI is a great experience, either. Flat configs suck in their own ways. Yes, INI isn't great, but people who object to significant whitespace don't object to the "whitespace" part, they object to the "significant" part. That code could not compile or have scope errors because of one extra space or because a space replaced a tab just seems absurd to some people. This is something about which reasonable people can disagree.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    > It's weird that a language with the mantra "explicit is better than implicit" The lack of braces enforces a certain style - something that can be found throughout Python. For example, the lack of multi-line lambda statements. > braces implied by the negative space It's easier to think of it in the same way that the compiler does: indent and dedent. Indent? Creating a new scope. Dedent? Exiting the current scope. All of the "constant 4 spaces" and "spaces instead of tabs" simply makes it easier for humans to interpret the indent and dedents visually. In my experience in writing code in multiple languages: even when using braces you, the coder, still effectively require indentation to visually parse blocks. Yes, copying and pasting code is a touch harder, and most text editors are too lazy to parse for indents and dedents, but the first is mitigated by applying basic DRY principles, the second by installing a python-aware plugin.
  - guitarbill 9y ago
    The INI example is in response to "Don't make your users created multilayered objects". Personally, I cannot stand TOML, but there's no accounting for taste. I think the significant whitespace is a pragmatism thing. If you're already doing it, do it consistently, if you're already doing it consistently do you really need brackets? The answer is no, and the added bonus is you (and everybody else) is forced to do the whitespace consistently. I'll take a consistently formatted codebase over inconsistencies any day!

guitarbill 9y ago

> Meaningful whitespace is horrid Millions of Python programmers might disagree, not to mention that most programmers using languages with meaningless whitespace (as far as the computer is concerned) still put whitespace in there, because humans. And it isn't like INI is a great experience, either. Flat configs suck in their own ways.

krapp 9y ago
It's weird that a language with the mantra "explicit is better than implicit" has, as a core feature, braces implied by the negative space of the left-hand margin of a text editor. >And it isn't like INI is a great experience, either. Flat configs suck in their own ways. Yes, INI isn't great, but people who object to significant whitespace don't object to the "whitespace" part, they object to the "significant" part. That code could not compile or have scope errors because of one extra space or because a space replaced a tab just seems absurd to some people. This is something about which reasonable people can disagree.
- falcolas 9y ago
  > It's weird that a language with the mantra "explicit is better than implicit" The lack of braces enforces a certain style - something that can be found throughout Python. For example, the lack of multi-line lambda statements. > braces implied by the negative space It's easier to think of it in the same way that the compiler does: indent and dedent. Indent? Creating a new scope. Dedent? Exiting the current scope. All of the "constant 4 spaces" and "spaces instead of tabs" simply makes it easier for humans to interpret the indent and dedents visually. In my experience in writing code in multiple languages: even when using braces you, the coder, still effectively require indentation to visually parse blocks. Yes, copying and pasting code is a touch harder, and most text editors are too lazy to parse for indents and dedents, but the first is mitigated by applying basic DRY principles, the second by installing a python-aware plugin.
- guitarbill 9y ago
  The INI example is in response to "Don't make your users created multilayered objects". Personally, I cannot stand TOML, but there's no accounting for taste. I think the significant whitespace is a pragmatism thing. If you're already doing it, do it consistently, if you're already doing it consistently do you really need brackets? The answer is no, and the added bonus is you (and everybody else) is forced to do the whitespace consistently. I'll take a consistently formatted codebase over inconsistencies any day!