4 ms·

I have very little sympathy for the 40% or so of the population who could save for retirement but don't.

buildbot 9y ago
Citations for that number? Why don’t they save for retirement? Can someone on minimum wage with a family save for retirement? Does someone who makes bad choices deserve to be homeless and destitute later in life?
- gozur88 9y ago
  >Does someone who makes bad choices deserve to be homeless and destitute later in life? The rest of us don't deserve to pay for their bad choices.
  - sn9 9y ago
    Bad choices don't happen in a vacuum any more than good choices do.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      I have other things I'd rather do with my money.
    - muninn_ 9y ago
      Sure but a bad choice can be buying a new BMW while I put 25% of my savings away to retire and now I'm stuck paying for you to retire because you didn't save your money. What's the incentive? I'm a democratic socialist, and I support safety nets and wealth redistribution where it makes sense, but it's important to keep in mind that we need to make sure we are continually incentivizing good practices. If you make a bunch of money and save nothing, you should live in poverty in you're retirement. Sure you can be fed and clothed and have your healthcare taken care of, but aside from that? You made a poor choice in the face of very clear information telling you to save for retirement. Frankly I think people need to be scared of what happens when they retire: they should be thinking "crap if I don't save money I'm going to live very poorly when I retire". Right now it's "the government will take care of me so let me go buy this unaffordable thing". Even worse is that the government encourages this because without consumerism our economic charade falls flat. Keep buying poorly made, cheap goods from China and overpriced homes and cars with low interest rates!!
  - Joof 9y ago
    Suppose your odds of landing in that exact scenerio are .001%. If you are unlucky, should we pay for you? What about your kids? It seems valuable to society to not have old, homeless people causing trouble. But that's just me.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      That .001% is what charity is for. Personally, I think people should pay the price for their stupidity. Subsidizing stupidity never works out in the end.
      - AstralStorm 9y ago
        Next time, please provide a source for your percentages.
        gozur88 9y ago
        Sometimes I feel like the only person on this site with eyes.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        The problem is you're not thinking of externalities of homelessness, much like a functioning health system w/ insurance. Ultimately, saying neither of these is worth spending communal government revenues on collapses down to "I'm okay with people dying on the street." Which is not offered as a straw man, but because that's a very possible outcome. And given that, if we're not okay with that, then we're going to spend significant resources to keep that from happening (ER care, homeless programs). Social security attempts to invest that earlier in a person's life, so that the money treating more dire circumstances can be saved. ... And also allows for some measure of human dignity for those who might not have been taught about compound interest at age 6.
  - adrianN 9y ago
    I agree, but I think it's more expensive to figure out who has brought their fate upon themselves and doesn't really deserve the money and who genuinely just had bad luck. That's why I'm in favor of a universal social safety net, for example via a basic income.
- pcardh0 9y ago
  If people are held responsible for the their actions, they might make smarter decisions

Citations for that number? Why don’t they save for retirement? Can someone on minimum wage with a family save for retirement? Does someone who makes bad choices deserve to be homeless and destitute later in life?

gozur88 9y ago
>Does someone who makes bad choices deserve to be homeless and destitute later in life? The rest of us don't deserve to pay for their bad choices.
- sn9 9y ago
  Bad choices don't happen in a vacuum any more than good choices do.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    I have other things I'd rather do with my money.
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    Sure but a bad choice can be buying a new BMW while I put 25% of my savings away to retire and now I'm stuck paying for you to retire because you didn't save your money. What's the incentive? I'm a democratic socialist, and I support safety nets and wealth redistribution where it makes sense, but it's important to keep in mind that we need to make sure we are continually incentivizing good practices. If you make a bunch of money and save nothing, you should live in poverty in you're retirement. Sure you can be fed and clothed and have your healthcare taken care of, but aside from that? You made a poor choice in the face of very clear information telling you to save for retirement. Frankly I think people need to be scared of what happens when they retire: they should be thinking "crap if I don't save money I'm going to live very poorly when I retire". Right now it's "the government will take care of me so let me go buy this unaffordable thing". Even worse is that the government encourages this because without consumerism our economic charade falls flat. Keep buying poorly made, cheap goods from China and overpriced homes and cars with low interest rates!!
- Joof 9y ago
  Suppose your odds of landing in that exact scenerio are .001%. If you are unlucky, should we pay for you? What about your kids? It seems valuable to society to not have old, homeless people causing trouble. But that's just me.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    That .001% is what charity is for. Personally, I think people should pay the price for their stupidity. Subsidizing stupidity never works out in the end.
    - AstralStorm 9y ago
      Next time, please provide a source for your percentages.
      - gozur88 9y ago
        Sometimes I feel like the only person on this site with eyes.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      The problem is you're not thinking of externalities of homelessness, much like a functioning health system w/ insurance. Ultimately, saying neither of these is worth spending communal government revenues on collapses down to "I'm okay with people dying on the street." Which is not offered as a straw man, but because that's a very possible outcome. And given that, if we're not okay with that, then we're going to spend significant resources to keep that from happening (ER care, homeless programs). Social security attempts to invest that earlier in a person's life, so that the money treating more dire circumstances can be saved. ... And also allows for some measure of human dignity for those who might not have been taught about compound interest at age 6.
- adrianN 9y ago
  I agree, but I think it's more expensive to figure out who has brought their fate upon themselves and doesn't really deserve the money and who genuinely just had bad luck. That's why I'm in favor of a universal social safety net, for example via a basic income.
pcardh0 9y ago
If people are held responsible for the their actions, they might make smarter decisions